A boy named Trayvon Martin is shot and killed by neighborhood watch goon

#126
#126
YorkVol said:
If Zimmerman was Black he would have been arrested and bail would be in the 6 figures. He would be proving self defense from behind bars.
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not true, the man that shot the teen in Clarksville was black, and the teen was white...

the teens banged on his garage door, and ran off. the homeowner came out and started shooting and hit one of them in the leg

the homeowner never called the police, emptied two magazines, and wasn't charged
 
#127
#127
GoBigOrangeUT said:
Absolutely outrageous this guy is still not at least being held in jail. HE SHOT AND KILLED SOMEBODY. Any other person would be immediately detained and held there, even if they pleaded self-defense. I mean, its no wonder the black community is up in arms. The local PD could have quelled that by doing their jobs.
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vol_in_il said:
not true, the man that shot the teen in Clarksville was black, and the teen was white...

the teens banged on his garage door, and ran off. the homeowner came out and started shooting and hit one of them in the leg

the homeowner never called the police, emptied two magazines, and wasn't charged
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see post above, happened just north of you ,so the police in Tennessee didn't charge the shooter either..
 
#128
#128
My concerns regarding the girlfriend's statement:

1) She says that he told her someone was watching him and so he put his hoodie on. Why would he do that because someone is watching him? And, it was raining -- wouldn't the hoodie already be on?

2) She says that someone pushed him because the phone mic fell out of his ear. What? How does she know that its because someone pushed him? She gets sense that it comes out. But she can't say she knows why it fell out. The fact that she says it is because someone pushed him suggests that she is already attaching her own narrative to it, said narrative of course supportive of the teen.

3) On the 911 call from Zimmerman, which is before the shooting, he says the kid has his hoodfie ALREADY on. That's why it takes him some time to identify him as black. The girlfriend, a MONTH AFTER the fact says the he put the hoodie on after noticing Zimmerman watching him. Doesn;t that sound like she's trying to make it sound like the hoodie was totally innocent -- and that she is saying that now to help buold a case against Zimmerman? And, how do you square that with the fact that the preshooting audio -- where there is no reason to lie -- clearly indicates the hoodie is ALREADY on?

4) Last, as earlier indicated, I am mystified that this girl would have had this conversation and it only become public now. Granted, she might have given an interview to police at the time. But I would have thought, with all these things going on, that she would have come forward a lot eralier with any sort of public statement.

Conclusion: It may well be that she is telling 100 percent the truth. But I think we have to consider the possibility that she is a 16 year old girl and has a chance to insinutate herself into the controversy, especially at the behest of the family's activist lawyers, and there is some possibility her version of events is at least a bit influenced by all of that.

If she did give an interview, I would really like to compare what she said then to what she says now.
 
#132
#132
Dr Dread said:
I've not seen anything about injuries to Zimmerman.
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No but the way it's being portrayed I don't guess anybody would. It's a senseless hate crime even though the guy was Hispanic & could have possibly been defending himself even though he seems to have initiated the entire thing.
 
#133
#133
I find it extremely hard to believe that a 240lb man in the prime of his life couldn't beat the crap out of a 140lb kid. It will be very telling to see how close they where when the shot was fired. Finally found an article that did in fact state that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and blood coming from behind his head. It also stated that Zimmerman wasn't making any statements because "the police" advised him against it. Hate to see the Feds get involved because this should be a local issue, but I don't see any other way in this case.
 
#134
#134
Dr Dread said:
I've not seen anything about injuries to Zimmerman.
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Google is your friend.

And I am not saying he didn't ultimately cause the need for his own use of force. Just saying there is a considerable difference between that and murder, given the stand your ground law.
 
#135
#135
Dr Dread said:
I find it extremely hard to believe that a 240lb man in the prime of his life couldn't beat the crap out of a 140lb kid. It will be very telling to see how close they where when the shot was fired. Finally found an article that did in fact state that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and blood coming from behind his head. It also stated that Zimmerman wasn't making any statements because "the police" advised him against it. Hate to see the Feds get involved because this should be a local issue, but I don't see any other way in this case.
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The City mayor asked for federal review so as to reassure the local black community that the investigation was fair and reasonable.
 
#136
#136
lawgator1 said:
Google is your friend.

And I am not saying he didn't ultimately cause the need for his own use of force. Just saying there is a considerable difference between that and murder, given the stand your ground law.
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How is it stand your ground when he chose to get out of the vehicle?
 
#138
#138
OrangeEmpire said:
How is it stand your ground when he chose to get out of the vehicle?
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It might not be.

But it could also be the case that he approached the kid and the kid attacked him. The kid might have done that out of fear, but Zimmerman wouldn't know that.

I am NOT defending Zimmerman. Or the stand your ground law (which, as predicted when passed has become a pass for some questionable self defense).

I am saying that the fact he has not been arrested may not be racist or sloppy police or prosecutor work, but nay rather be a function of lack of credible evidence and that crappy law.
 
#139
#139
lawgator1 said:
Google is your friend.

And I am not saying he didn't ultimately cause the need for his own use of force. Just saying there is a considerable difference between that and murder, given the stand your ground law.
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Reading should be your friend, as had you continued to read, you would've seen the post were I stated that I finally found an article mentioning injuries to Zimmerman.

As to the SYG law, it offers no protection to a person who initiates an altercation. Zimmerman was not on his own property. He was not in his car. He went out of his way to confront this kid. The SYG law does not apply in this case. It's murder. Plan and simple.

“They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.”

Peaden and Baxley say their law, at its heart, is a self-defense law. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat. Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another. The law does say a law-abiding citizen can use deadly force if "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

“The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

Under the law, a person who claims he was acting in self defense can be immune from arrest. But, like Peaden, Baxley said Zimmerman might have lost that right because he could have “aggravated” the situation and provoked a confrontation.

Said Baxley: “There’s nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people, particularly if law enforcement has told you to stay put. I don’t see why this statute is being challenged in this case. That is to prevent you from being attacked by other people.”

And yes, google is my friend.
Read more here: Fla. lawmakers say Stand Your Ground law shouldn't protect teen's killer | Florida Legislature | Bradenton Herald
 
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#140
#140
lawgator1 said:
It might not be.

But it could also be the case that he approached the kid and the kid attacked him. The kid might have done that out of fear, but Zimmerman wouldn't know that.

I am NOT defending Zimmerman. Or the stand your ground law (which, as predicted when passed has become a pass for some questionable self defense).

I am saying that the fact he has not been arrested may not be racist or sloppy police or prosecutor work, but nay rather be a function of lack of credible evidence and that crappy law.
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If a jury were to hear Zimmerman call Martin a "*****ng c**n" when he called the police, would the jury think it was racially motivated?
 
#145
#145
lawgator1 said:
It might not be.

But it could also be the case that he approached the kid and the kid attacked him. The kid might have done that out of fear, but Zimmerman wouldn't know that.

I am NOT defending Zimmerman. Or the stand your ground law (which, as predicted when passed has become a pass for some questionable self defense).

I am saying that the fact he has not been arrested may not be racist or sloppy police or prosecutor work, but nay rather be a function of lack of credible evidence and that crappy law.
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Kind of seems like you are. You continue to question the credibility of his girlfriend and come up with hypotheticals on Zimmerman being in the right. Haven't seen you do a lot of questioning, if any, about Zimmerman. 40+ calls to the cops since January 1st screams of crazy, paranoid, psycho with too much time on their hands.

I have no idea if it's true but I picture this guy as a shut-in who has very little interaction with human beings. It sounds like he sits around all day, staring out the window looking for made up crap to call in. He sounds paranoid as hell and he was not only crazy enough to follow someone(a kid) with a gun, he killed them. Normal people do not do any of the above unless they are a cop and it's their job. Cops also have a social life though and don't spend their time peeking through their window because they're paranoid.

If he did in fact call him an "f'ing coon" when he called 911, he should not only get life in prison but the death penalty as well.

By the way, he should be charged for not following the officer's orders. If a cop is physically in your presence and you disobey their orders, you're charged and arrested. This should be no different.
 
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#146
#146
The Ron Mexico said:
There's always a chance. OJ and Casey Anthony are two murderers that got away in a criminal trial.
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It's sad that this is true. Especially since we arrest people for small amounts of weed while people get away with murder. The justice system should be fair but at times it's anything but.
 
#147
#147
The_Orange_Pearl said:
Kind of seems like you are. You continue to question the credibility of his girlfriend and come up with hypotheticals on Zimmerman being in the right. Haven't seen you do a lot of questioning, if any, about Zimmerman. 40+ calls to the cops since January 1st screams of crazy, paranoid, psycho with too much time on their hands.

I have no idea if it's true but I picture this guy as a shut-in who has very little interaction with human beings. It sounds like he sits around all day, staring out the window looking for made up crap to call in. He sounds paranoid as hell and he was not only crazy enough to follow someone(a kid) with a gun, he killed them. Normal people do not do any of the above unless they are a cop and it's their job. Cops also have a social life though and don't spend their time peeking through their window because they're paranoid.

If he did in fact call him an "f'ing coon" when he called 911, he should not only get life in prison but the death penalty as well.

By the way, he should be charged for not following the officer's orders. If a cop is physically in your presence and you disobey their orders, you're charged and arrested. This should be no different.
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The 911 operator is not a cop and it is advice on what to do. It isn't a crime to disobey it.

I do think it should hurt his self defense claim though.
 
#148
#148
Dr Dread said:
Reading should be your friend, as had you continued to read, you would've seen the post were I stated that I finally found an article mentioning injuries to Zimmerman.

As to the SYG law, it offers no protection to a person who initiates an altercation. Zimmerman was not on his own property. He was not in his car. He went out of his way to confront this kid. The SYG law does not apply in this case. It's murder. Plan and simple.

“They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.”

Peaden and Baxley say their law, at its heart, is a self-defense law. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat. Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another. The law does say a law-abiding citizen can use deadly force if "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

“The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

Under the law, a person who claims he was acting in self defense can be immune from arrest. But, like Peaden, Baxley said Zimmerman might have lost that right because he could have “aggravated” the situation and provoked a confrontation.

Said Baxley: “There’s nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people, particularly if law enforcement has told you to stay put. I don’t see why this statute is being challenged in this case. That is to prevent you from being attacked by other people.”

And yes, google is my friend.
Read more here: Fla. lawmakers say Stand Your Ground law shouldn't protect teen's killer | Florida Legislature | Bradenton Herald
Click to expand...

I've argued from the outset that my biggest problem with Zimmerman's defensive stance is his involvement in initiating the encounter. Earlier I called it the "instigator turned victim" defense and I'm not a fan. HOWEVER, if it turns out that Martin did attack Zimmerman then self defense comes into play whether anyone likes it or not.

Just because someone starts something doesn't forfeit their ability to claim defense. If some a**hole in a bar knocks you over a table he's guilty of assault. If you then get up, break a bottle and come at him YOU are guilty of assault with a deadly weapon and possibly attempted murder and if he ends up killing you I can guarantee he will have a viable argument of SD in court. "He started it" won't go well for him but you can pretty much forget him getting charged with murder for it.

Getting back to this particular case I don't see how to establish mens rea to the extent of getting any kind of murder conviction. I'm guessing something roughly analogous to any negligent act that results in a death would apply. (whatever fits best in FL law) While intent to kill anyone on Zimmerman's part would be impossible to prove (and likely isn't true anyway) acts that were wholly of his own volition resulted in a confrontation that shouldn't have occurred and resulted in a death. Murder? Don't see it. That doesn't mean I don't think he has culpability in the matter.
 
#150
#150
hndog609 said:
I've argued from the outset that my biggest problem with Zimmerman's defensive stance is his involvement in initiating the encounter. Earlier I called it the "instigator turned victim" defense and I'm not a fan. HOWEVER, if it turns out that Martin did attack Zimmerman then self defense comes into play whether anyone likes it or not.

Just because someone starts something doesn't forfeit their ability to claim defense. If some a**hole in a bar knocks you over a table he's guilty of assault. If you then get up, break a bottle and come at him YOU are guilty of assault with a deadly weapon and possibly attempted murder and if he ends up killing you I can guarantee he will have a viable argument of SD in court. "He started it" won't go well for him but you can pretty much forget him getting charged with murder for it.

Getting back to this particular case I don't see how to establish mens rea to the extent of getting any kind of murder conviction. I'm guessing something roughly analogous to any negligent act that results in a death would apply. (whatever fits best in FL law) While intent to kill anyone on Zimmerman's part would be impossible to prove (and likely isn't true anyway) acts that were wholly of his own volition resulted in a confrontation that shouldn't have occurred and resulted in a death. Murder? Don't see it. That doesn't mean I don't think he has culpability in the matter.
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So basically, what you're saying is that after getting knocked over the table, the guy should have got up and shot the guy dead and claim self-defense. But by passing on his option to defend himself with deadly force, that option now goes to the guy that started the fight.

Not hardly the way the law works.

And by the way, Martin didn't come at him with a broken bottle, he came with a bag of skittles.
I guess the next question is whether or not Zimmerman is a diabetic.
 
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