The best professor I ever knew...

#1
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sjt18

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#1
... asked a great question once: "Do you get what you ask for whether you want it or not?"

I think those asking for another coaching turnover at UT are asking for something far more than they realize. Once again, I am not, nor have I ever, said Dooley was "the guy" or destined for success. In fact, I have said just the opposite- that his chances for success were less than 50% even if he's a very good coach because of the program he inherited.

However there are ALWAYS unintended consequences to decisions like this... and there are absolutely NO, as in ZERO, sure fire winners in the coaching business... not even Saban who if by some miracle were named the HC at UT tomorrow would inherit a situation much more like Michigan State than Bama or LSU.

Holtz won a NC at ND... and flopped at USCe.

Kragthorpe was on everyone's A list before melting at L'ville... might want to hold that one open for Stong too.

Weis was a "can't miss" guy... who missed badly.

Turner Gill was considered a miracle worker at Buffalo and is out after two years at KU.

Neuheisel was thought to be UCLA's savior.

Hawkin was going to resurrect Colorado in Neuheisel's wake.

Rich Rod could not fail at Michigan, right?... and he even ended up with the ideal QB for his system.

O'Brien was sure to make NCSU a competitor, right?


There is always a time for change... well thought out... well planned... intelligent, rational, non-emotion driven change. Fulmer's time to go came and there is not rational argument against that fact. But even that change came with risks that didn't pan out, costs, and... pain.
 
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#2
#2
So much is wrong with your coach descriptions in this thread just to support your flawed hypothesis. Good effort, though.
 
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#3
#3
Anybody old enough to have had Wild Bill Cherry for Geography at UT? 'They have goats that can climb trees, don't believe me - check it out!' - Wild Bill circa 79
 
#4
#4
Just because the coach that might replace Dooley doesn't work out doesn't mean it was a mistake to fire Dooley. It means a bad hire was made.
 
#5
#5
If your car won't run you have to buy a new one. Even if the new one turns out to be a lemon.
 
#6
#6
I believe it was Economic Geography, wasn't it? You had to get Wild Bill & Bass for Cultural Anthropology to see the skulls !

BTW - Thoughtful Post OP - I liked it.
 
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#7
#7
DocVol said:
So much is wrong with your coach descriptions in this thread just to support your flawed hypothesis. Good effort, though.
Click to expand...

What flawed hypothesis would that be... that there are MANY negative risks in changing coaches again? Or perhaps that "grass is always greener" folks aren't considering that things CAN get worse?

What coach description errors have I made? Not a single one.

I didn't even mention Butch Davis or a string of guys who have come and gone at talent rich Miami.

I don't claim to have all the info. Hart hopefully has enough and will either make the right call to cull Dooley now or will lay expectations out as groundwork for doing it should he continue to fail. I am simply pointing out that you guys are blindly swallowing the notion that change will work just because it is change... that there IS a sure fire coaching hire that can be made.
 
#8
#8
WesternKyVol said:
If your car won't run you have to buy a new one. Even if the new one turns out to be a lemon.
Click to expand...

If your car won't run... you automatically go buy a new one before seeing if you can fix it or not? Maybe you should pay the buyout... looks like you can afford it.
 
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#10
#10
sjt18 said:
What flawed hypothesis would that be... that there are MANY negative risks in changing coaches again? Or perhaps that "grass is always greener" folks aren't considering that things CAN get worse?

What coach description errors have I made? Not a single one.

I didn't even mention Butch Davis or a string of guys who have come and gone at talent rich Miami.

I don't claim to have all the info. Hart hopefully has enough and will either make the right call to cull Dooley now or will lay expectations out as groundwork for doing it should he continue to fail. I am simply pointing out that you guys are blindly swallowing the notion that change will work just because it is change... that there IS a sure fire coaching hire that can be made.
Click to expand...

We just lost to Kentucky. We've hit rock bottom.
 
#11
#11
sjt18 said:
If your car won't run... you automatically go buy a new one before seeing if you can fix it or not? Maybe you should pay the buyout... looks like you can afford it.
Click to expand...

Just an analogy. If the engine needs an overhaul it's usually better to count your loss and go a lower-mileage route.
 
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#12
#12
sjt18 said:
... asked a great question once: "Do you get what you ask for whether you want it or not?"

I think those asking for another coaching turnover at UT are asking for something far more than they realize. Once again, I am not, nor have I ever, said Dooley was "the guy" or destined for success. In fact, I have said just the opposite- that his chances for success were less than 50% even if he's a very good coach because of the program he inherited.

However there are ALWAYS unintended consequences to decisions like this... and there are absolutely NO, as in ZERO, sure fire winners in the coaching business... not even Saban who if by some miracle were named the HC at UT tomorrow would inherit a situation much more like Michigan State than Bama or LSU.

Holtz won a NC at ND... and flopped at USCe.

Kragthorpe was on everyone's A list before melting at L'ville... might want to hold that one open for Stong too.

Weis was a "can't miss" guy... who missed badly.

Turner Gill was considered a miracle worker at Buffalo and is out after two years at KU.

Neuheisel was thought to be UCLA's savior.

Hawkin was going to resurrect Colorado in Neuheisel's wake.

Rich Rod could not fail at Michigan, right?... and he even ended up with the ideal QB for his system.

O'Brien was sure to make NCSU a competitor, right?


There is always a time for change... well thought out... well planned... intelligent, rational, non-emotion driven change. Fulmer's time to go came and there is not rational argument against that fact. But even that change came with risks that didn't pan out, costs, and... pain.
Click to expand...

The right coach could come in and win with our roster right away. Dooley is getting us talent and depth unfortunately he is not a great coach.
 
#14
#14
oklavol said:
Just because the coach that might replace Dooley doesn't work out doesn't mean it was a mistake to fire Dooley. It means a bad hire was made.
Click to expand...

I don't have the means to evaluate Dooley at that level. Just from what I do know... I believe it would likely be a mistake to fire him before next year assuming he continues to fail.

Your point is fair enough... but so is the reality that successful coaches sometimes experience seasons like Dooley had this year. Hart has to be wise and rational enough to keep Dooley if he's a very good coach simply overwhelmed temporarily by extraordinary circumstances or if he is a guy who lacks the talent to get it done.

Saban is the closest thing to a "sure fire" hire there is out there. Yet when he was at MSU, he had FOUR seasons to start his tenure with his best win total being 7... and with 3 blowout bowl losses to nobodies.

By his 5th year, he had not improved the program over the previous coach in terms of wins. He was on a very, very hot seat before going 9-2, earning a Rose Bowl bid, and escaping to LSU.

Would things have been different over these years for MSU had he been kept? They have the dishonor of having run the best coach in college football out of town.
 
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#15
#15
TennVols423 said:
The right coach could come in and win with our roster right away. Dooley is getting us talent and depth unfortunately he is not a great coach.
Click to expand...

Honestly, you don't know what kind of coach he is and neither do I. He inherited an absolute train wreck. In addition to youth, inexperience, a lack of upper class leadership, etc this year... He lost his best LB, best two DB's, best WR, only QB for 6 weeks,...

I know "what ifs" don't count but the results of this season are quite different IMO if JJ has a brain and the other guys aren't injured. UT simply isn't good enough right now to lose that many good players.

He may not be a good coach. I am not saying he is. I am saying that is yet to be legitimately proven.
 
#16
#16
sjt18 said:
Honestly, you don't know what kind of coach he is and neither do I. He inherited an absolute train wreck. In addition to youth, inexperience, a lack of upper class leadership, etc this year... He lost his best LB, best two DB's, best WR, only QB for 6 weeks,...

I know "what ifs" don't count but the results of this season are quite different IMO if JJ has a brain and the other guys aren't injured. UT simply isn't good enough right now to lose that many good players.

He may not be a good coach. I am not saying he is. I am saying that is yet to be legitimately proven.
Click to expand...
We know what kind of game manger he is. We know that he has not exceeded expecations, ever. And we know that he cannot motivate his players when they are 8 point favorites with a bowl, and possibly his own job, on the line. Not sure what else we need to know?
 
#17
#17
sjt18 said:
.

Holtz won a NC at ND... and flopped at USCe.

Kragthorpe was on everyone's A list before melting at L'ville... might want to hold that one open for Stong too.

Weis was a "can't miss" guy... who missed badly.

Turner Gill was considered a miracle worker at Buffalo and is out after two years at KU.

Neuheisel was thought to be UCLA's savior.

Hawkin was going to resurrect Colorado in Neuheisel's wake.

Rich Rod could not fail at Michigan, right?... and he even ended up with the ideal QB for his system.

O'Brien was sure to make NCSU a competitor, right?
Click to expand...
Holtz didn't 'flop' at South Carolina, Rich Rod was just a poor fit for the Michigan job, and you're vastly overstating how highly everyone thought of those other coaches when they were hired.
 
#18
#18
sjt18 said:
Honestly, you don't know what kind of coach he is and neither do I. He inherited an absolute train wreck. In addition to youth, inexperience, a lack of upper class leadership, etc this year... He lost his best LB, best two DB's, best WR, only QB for 6 weeks,...

I know "what ifs" don't count but the results of this season are quite different IMO if JJ has a brain and the other guys aren't injured. UT simply isn't good enough right now to lose that many good players.

He may not be a good coach. I am not saying he is. I am saying that is yet to be legitimately proven.
Click to expand...

We know he can't out coach other SEC coaches, he can't motivate his team to play hard for the entire game, his team regressed from last year and through this season. The chances of Dooley being successful at UT are extremely slim, which to a lot of people was a given the day he was hired.
 
#19
#19
sjt18 said:
What flawed hypothesis would that be... that there are MANY negative risks in changing coaches again? Or perhaps that "grass is always greener" folks aren't considering that things CAN get worse?

What coach description errors have I made? Not a single one.

I didn't even mention Butch Davis or a string of guys who have come and gone at talent rich Miami.

I don't claim to have all the info. Hart hopefully has enough and will either make the right call to cull Dooley now or will lay expectations out as groundwork for doing it should he continue to fail. I am simply pointing out that you guys are blindly swallowing the notion that change will work just because it is change... that there IS a sure fire coaching hire that can be made.
Click to expand...

Your points are valid. But many on this board would rather criticize opinions but wont stick their necks out with facts. What else would you expect from the resident drama queens?
 
#20
#20
zjcvols said:
We just lost to Kentucky. We've hit rock bottom.
Click to expand...

We said that in 2005 when we lost to Vandy. We said that in 2008 when we lost to Wyoming. We said that last year when we were starting 6 true freshman on offense.

I don't even say we've hit rock bottom anymore because we keep getting worse and worse... 7 seasons now.
 
#22
#22
sjt18 said:
... asked a great question once: "Do you get what you ask for whether you want it or not?"

I think those asking for another coaching turnover at UT are asking for something far more than they realize. Once again, I am not, nor have I ever, said Dooley was "the guy" or destined for success. In fact, I have said just the opposite- that his chances for success were less than 50% even if he's a very good coach because of the program he inherited.

However there are ALWAYS unintended consequences to decisions like this... and there are absolutely NO, as in ZERO, sure fire winners in the coaching business... not even Saban who if by some miracle were named the HC at UT tomorrow would inherit a situation much more like Michigan State than Bama or LSU.

Holtz won a NC at ND... and flopped at USCe.

Kragthorpe was on everyone's A list before melting at L'ville... might want to hold that one open for Stong too.

Weis was a "can't miss" guy... who missed badly.

Turner Gill was considered a miracle worker at Buffalo and is out after two years at KU.

Neuheisel was thought to be UCLA's savior.

Hawkin was going to resurrect Colorado in Neuheisel's wake.

Rich Rod could not fail at Michigan, right?... and he even ended up with the ideal QB for his system.

O'Brien was sure to make NCSU a competitor, right?


There is always a time for change... well thought out... well planned... intelligent, rational, non-emotion driven change. Fulmer's time to go came and there is not rational argument against that fact. But even that change came with risks that didn't pan out, costs, and... pain.
Click to expand...

Quality post as usual sjt18.

I agree with what you're saying. My similar take is that circumstances often make or break the coach. Like Larry Coker at Miami - couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag but inherited possibly the most talented college football roster of all time and won a national title.

Another Saban scenario... lost to Louisiana-Monroe.

Miles was about to be run out of LSU before the 2010 season... and look where he is now.

Sometimes things take time, Saban and Miles are good examples. Sometimes circumstances can't be overcome, even by the best.

All that being said, following are my problems with Dooley. These are the reasons that I have a hard time believing he will leave us to greatness:

  • worst kicking game ever at Tennessee, probably not hyperbole
  • regression of our run game (over a squad featuring 3 freshman o-line starters)
  • Failure to score a single 3rd quarter point in 8 straight games
  • Loss to Kentucky with an all-important bowl birth on the line
 
#25
#25
sjt18, the voice of reason.

but damn, man, right now emotion rules.

we dump to kensucky, and meanwhile OSU coughs up $40mil?

we go bargain hunting for boy blunder at $2mil/per and then turn right around and get an even better bargain of doodles for $1.8mil? while OSU forks over close to $6mil/per?

damn. just damn.
 
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