Should we have retired Bernard and Ernie's numbers on the same night?

#51
#51
utfantilidie said:
My neighbor (UT grad) that attended school with them, thought both player's jerseys should have been retired.
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I'm not saying Grunfeld shouldn't eventually have his number retired. I believe that should happen in the fairly near future. However, making King share his night with Grunfeld would have been like UNC asking Jordan to share his night with Sam Perkins.
 
#52
#52
hatvol96 said:
With the exception of Argentina, please name an international team that plays any defense, zone or otherwise. I might give you Spain, but the Eastern Euros and the South Americans play defense like rec league teams. That's why guys like Kobe Bryant and Ray Allen will shoot them into oblivion in Beijing. Dallas triggers their offense with as good a shooting big man as has ever played, how many titles do they have now?
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They don't need to play D. Sitting back in a zone and moving to spots doesn't equate to what we think of as D. All teams have had to do is force us to shoot and we've gotten killed for our lack of shooting. Certainly Ray Allen, Kobe and Michael Redd could make a difference. I think those are the type of guys that should fill up our guard positions, rather than LBJ types.

Dallas has no center and has never played D before, not a winning combo. If they could have dropped into tight zone D last year, Miami wouldn't have had a prayer and the vice versa does not hold. But the rules allow a Wade to drive at will and lay it in or shoot 30 FTs a night.
 
#53
#53
hatvol96 said:
I'm not saying Grunfeld shouldn't eventually have his number retired. I believe that should happen in the fairly near future. However, making King share his night with Grunfeld would have been like UNC asking Jordan to share his night with Sam Perkins.
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I get that point, but they were clearly a tandem and people knew them as such, that's the basis of my argument.

Earlier, you were making it sound as if Grunfeld was comparable to some second rate, backwater, no ball playing type - you know, like Bradshaw.
 
#54
#54
BigPapaVol said:
They don't need to play D. Sitting back in a zone and moving to spots doesn't equate to what we think of as D. All teams have had to do is force us to shoot and we've gotten killed for our lack of shooting. Certainly Ray Allen, Kobe and Michael Redd could make a difference. I think those are the type of guys that should fill up our guard positions, rather than LBJ types.

Dallas has no center and has never played D before, not a winning combo. If they could have dropped into tight zone D last year, Miami wouldn't have had a prayer and the vice versa does not hold. But the rules allow a Wade to drive at will and lay it in or shoot 30 FTs a night.
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The officials tagging Tim Duncan with two fouls before introductions were over in every game in '04 didn't necessarily help the situation. Dallas was one of the league leaders in defense last year. As big a stiff as he is Dampier is better than at least half the centers in the NBA.
 
#55
#55
hatvol96 said:
I'm not saying Grunfeld shouldn't eventually have his number retired. I believe that should happen in the fairly near future. However, making King share his night with Grunfeld would have been like UNC asking Jordan to share his night with Sam Perkins.
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I concur.This probably should have happened years ago.I do wonder who pushed it through.I heard the announcers talking last night and said that in the NBA he once averaged 33 points a game when he received MVP of the league over an outstanding group of ball players.Grunfiled made first team All American in college so he was a good college player, no doubt.
 
#56
#56
BigPapaVol said:
I get that point, but they were clearly a tandem and people knew them as such, that's the basis of my argument.

Earlier, you were making it sound as if Grunfeld was comparable to some second rate, backwater, no ball playing type - you know, like Bradshaw.
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No, Grunfeld was one of a brand of players that thrived in that era. He wasn't quick but he was stronger than most guys he played against and could muscle guys around. With the game becoming more athletic and the shot clock increasing the number of possessions, my guess is that Grunfeld would struggle in today's game. King, on the other hand, would thrive today as much, or more, than he did then.
 
#57
#57
hatvol96 said:
The officials tagging Tim Duncan with two fouls before introductions were over in every game in '04 didn't necessarily help the situation. Dallas was one of the league leaders in defense last year. As big a stiff as he is Dampier is better than at least half the centers in the NBA.
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Yeah, but Duncan knows better than to be that aggressive in that atmosphere. He's playing against people who would rather fade and hit a 20 footer than go to the hole. Give 'em some space in tight. That said, it definitely hurts.

Dallas was a statistical defensive team, but that can be accomplished by impacting pace of play. They have a couple of guys who play good D, but that doesn't help when you have Terry and Dirk to cover for. Good D is the team who can make the stops when needed, not those who change pace of play to statistically decrease total points of opposition. Good FG% defenses are sometimes great, but they are more often teams with a good backstop who prevents crip shots, which generally help the O's shooting percentage.
 
#58
#58
BigPapaVol said:
Yeah, but Duncan knows better than to be that aggressive in that atmosphere. He's playing against people who would rather fade and hit a 20 footer than go to the hole. Give 'em some space in tight. That said, it definitely hurts.

Dallas was a statistical defensive team, but that can be accomplished by impacting pace of play. They have a couple of guys who play good D, but that doesn't help when you have Terry and Dirk to cover for. Good D is the team who can make the stops when needed, not those who change pace of play to statistically decrease total points of opposition. Good FG% defenses are sometimes great, but they are more often teams with a good backstop who prevents crip shots, which generally help the O's shooting percentage.
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I agree on Duncan to a point. However, the two fouls in the semifinal were the result of such little contact, it's hard for me to say he was being aggressive. I actually think Jason Terry's a decent defender, he is just overmatched guarding 2s when they play him in tandem with Devin Harris. Dirk's idea of good defense, like almost all Euros, is outscoring the guy he's guarding.
 
#59
#59
hatvol96 said:
No, Grunfeld was one of a brand of players that thrived in that era. He wasn't quick but he was stronger than most guys he played against and could muscle guys around. With the game becoming more athletic and the shot clock increasing the number of possessions, my guess is that Grunfeld would struggle in today's game. King, on the other hand, would thrive today as much, or more, than he did then.
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Grunfeld would be a matchup problem today as well because he could flat out shoot or he could play with his back to the basket and muscle people.

King would have been great in any era, but wouldn't have stood out as much, because he would no longer be the best athlete on the floor every night. That said, he still had the quickest great shot in the history of the game.

I don't think trying to cross eras with players is a very good way to evaluate them. George Mikan would have been pathetic in today's game and the Big O would never have become the triple double machine that he was back then. Some would have been great in any era, but those are the all time greats and there ain't many of them. BK probably works on that list. Grunfeld in no way on that list.
 
#60
#60
I must admit that I find it funny BPV was gushing all over hat and his deep intellect the other day in another post. Now hat has turned his full furry on BPV. Good stuff.

As for retiring Ernie's number, I do agree that it should not have occured the same night as Bernie. I think a lot of people agree with that as well, otherwise they would have retired them both.

Based on criteria and his friendship with CBP though, I think we will see Ernie's number go up in the near future at the game of his choosing.
 
#61
#61
UT IE 95 said:
I must admit that I find it funny BPV was gushing all over hat and his deep intellect the other day in another post. Now hat has turned his full furry on BPV. Good stuff.
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If you think anything in this post represents my "full fury," you've obviously never seen anything written while I was angry.
 
#63
#63
UT IE 95 said:
I must admit that I find it funny BPV was gushing all over hat and his deep intellect the other day in another post. Now hat has turned his full furry on BPV. Good stuff.

As for retiring Ernie's number, I do agree that it should not have occured the same night as Bernie. I think a lot of people agree with that as well, otherwise they would have retired them both.

Based on criteria and his friendship with CBP though, I think we will see Ernie's number go up in the near future at the game of his choosing.
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I try to lay off and be nice, and here you go saying idiotic things again. I have never gushed over anything about hat. I was simply saying that on a relative basis in that conversation with you, one poster was significantly better armed to argue than another. In this situation, I don't believe either poster is better armed than another. It's not like one of us is battling a tank with a switch as was the case in that debate. I haven't cowered under the weight of his rudeness and I'll give him his due when he's right. I generally stay on point and he, like most attorneys, changes the debate and nitpicks at things that are irrelevant to the original argument, unless the debate is breaking his way.

I assure you that I want nothing to do with his furry.

I concede on when the jerseys should be retired. Each deserves his own night.
 
#67
#67
oklavol said:
My 2 cents here.

I have mixed feeling about retiring Grunfield's jersey.

Ernie and Bernie were great for UT basketball at the time, but UT never made it to the sweet 16 while they were here. I know everyone wants to jump on the Ernie and Bernie bandwagon, but to me thats a big asterick. The UT basketball program has never made it to the sweet 16.

Bottom line, I think Dale Ellis and Houston, are more deserving right now.
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:furious3: blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#68
#68
thagodfather said:
:furious3: blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I'll play devil's advocate here. Grunfeld was a college All-American with a small career in the NBA. I think his best season he average around 12 pts/game and finished with a career average of 8 pts/game.

For comparison, if you retired every UT football player's number who made All-American and played in the NFL you would have around 30 less numbers to choose from.

Just keep in mind, the less number of people in the group the more exclusive it is. When only players who had died in Vietnam or WWII had their numbers retired that was a very group.
 
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