Should we have retired Bernard and Ernie's numbers on the same night?

[LS Vol]

I think each deserves his own night. Should not have to share the spotlight - even though they were a great combo.

 

[WA_Vol]

My 2 cents here.

I have mixed feeling about retiring Grunfield's jersey.

Ernie and Bernie were great for UT basketball at the time, but UT never made it to the sweet 16 while they were here. I know everyone wants to jump on the Ernie and Bernie bandwagon, but to me thats a big asterick. The UT basketball program has never made it to the sweet 16.

Bottom line, I think Dale Ellis and Houston, are more deserving right now.

 

[hatvol96]

My 2 cents here.

I have mixed feeling about retiring Grunfield's jersey.

Ernie and Bernie were great for UT basketball at the time, but UT never made it to the sweet 16 while they were here. I know everyone wants to jump on the Ernie and Bernie bandwagon, but to me thats a big asterick. The UT basketball program has never made it to the sweet 16.

Bottom line, I think Dale Ellis and Houston, are more deserving right now.

Actually, UT has been in the round of 16 twice. DeVoe took a team to Atlanta where they lost to Virginia. That was before the field was expanded to 64. Jerry Green then took his next to last team to the regional semis, by beating UCONN in the second round, where they were beaten by UNC.

 

[WA_Vol]

Actually, UT has been in the round of 16 twice. DeVoe took a team to Atlanta where they lost to Virginia. That was before the field was expanded to 64. Jerry Green then took his next to last team to the regional semis, by beating UCONN in the second round, where they were beaten by UNC.

Thanks for the correction. I believe Ray Mears never made it to the sweet 16, and UT has never made it to the elite 8. Its been a while since I looked that up.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Compared to Grunfeld's stay in the League, Christian Laettner's time in the NBA was Hall of Fame Stuff. Laettner made an All Star Game and played significant minutes. All Ernie did was occupy a courtside seat every night. As to this blather about international play, let's see what happens in Beijing when we actually send our best team. Exactly how many of the Olympic or World Championship losses has Kobe competed in? KG? The US will roll everyone at full strength.

Bottom line is that the NBA is littered with great college basketball players who weren't enough genetic freak (be it size or athleticism) to play in the NBA under its silly rules. That has little to do with the quality of the college players while they were in college. JJ Redick and Steve Alford were unbelievable college players who will not/did not get it done in the NBA. Adam Morrison will be decent at best. Fazekas, same story. Does that in any way diminish what they accomplished at the college level for their respective universities? Should we adjust a part of our jersey retirement criterion to include performance at the NBA level. That's ridiculous. The NBA game is bent upon one on one athletic play made for tv, while the college / international games don't handicap defenses so that they can't take advantage of current players' weaknesses.

The NBA stars will roll everyone at full strength is absurd and who cares, since I'm only blathering. But since you picked up that yoke, this past year's team was full of NBA all-stars / media headliners and they didn't get it done when playing by actual basketball rules, where the ability to shoot, block out, screen, back off of players who can only drive etc. actually make a difference. That team had LBJ, Wade, Anthony, AI, Duncan, Bosh etc. Clearly a more athletic team than anyone else in the world could even dream of assembling (granted, I would only guard one of them outside of 15 feet). They didn't get it done because the games of our "best" have eroded into drive, dunk or drive, get fouled, make 1 of 2 at the line.

 

[hatvol96]

Bottom line is that the NBA is littered with great college basketball players who weren't enough genetic freak (be it size or athleticism) to play in the NBA under its silly rules. That has little to do with the quality of the college players while they were in college. JJ Redick and Steve Alford were unbelievable college players who will not/did not get it done in the NBA. Adam Morrison will be decent at best. Fazekas, same story. Does that in any way diminish what they accomplished at the college level for their respective universities? Should we adjust a part of our jersey retirement criterion to include performance at the NBA level. That's ridiculous. The NBA game is bent upon one on one athletic play made for tv, while the college / international games don't handicap defenses so that they can't take advantage of current players' weaknesses.

The NBA stars will roll everyone at full strength is absurd and who cares, since I'm only blathering. But since you picked up that yoke, this past year's team was full of NBA all-stars / media headliners and they didn't get it done when playing by actual basketball rules, where the ability to shoot, block out, screen, back off of players who can only drive etc. actually make a difference. That team had LBJ, Wade, Anthony, AI, Duncan, Bosh etc. Clearly a more athletic team than anyone else in the world could even dream of assembling (granted, I would only guard one of them outside of 15 feet). They didn't get it done because the games of our "best" have eroded into drive, dunk or drive, get fouled, make 1 of 2 at the line.

Yeah, when I think real rules, the first things I think of are a trapezoid lane and no basket interference rules. That's what I grew up with.

 

[hatvol96]

Bottom line is that the NBA is littered with great college basketball players who weren't enough genetic freak (be it size or athleticism) to play in the NBA under its silly rules. That has little to do with the quality of the college players while they were in college. JJ Redick and Steve Alford were unbelievable college players who will not/did not get it done in the NBA. Adam Morrison will be decent at best. Fazekas, same story. Does that in any way diminish what they accomplished at the college level for their respective universities? Should we adjust a part of our jersey retirement criterion to include performance at the NBA level. That's ridiculous. The NBA game is bent upon one on one athletic play made for tv, while the college / international games don't handicap defenses so that they can't take advantage of current players' weaknesses.

The NBA stars will roll everyone at full strength is absurd and who cares, since I'm only blathering. But since you picked up that yoke, this past year's team was full of NBA all-stars / media headliners and they didn't get it done when playing by actual basketball rules, where the ability to shoot, block out, screen, back off of players who can only drive etc. actually make a difference. That team had LBJ, Wade, Anthony, AI, Duncan, Bosh etc. Clearly a more athletic team than anyone else in the world could even dream of assembling (granted, I would only guard one of them outside of 15 feet). They didn't get it done because the games of our "best" have eroded into drive, dunk or drive, get fouled, make 1 of 2 at the line.

Putting Ernie Grunfeld on the same billing with Bernard King would be comparable to giving John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band co-headlining status with Bruce Springsteen.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Yeah, when I think real rules, the first things I think of are a trapezoid lane and no basket interference rules. That's what I grew up with.

you're welcome to pick up some nitnoid trivial rules and shift the argument away from the atrocious representation of basketball that the NBA has become and the uselessness of NBA success as a measure of a players accomplishments at the college level, but it will not make you any more correct.

As if the lane and basket interference somehow impacted our getting our lunches handed to us by the likes of Puerto Rico.

 

[hatvol96]

Bottom line is that the NBA is littered with great college basketball players who weren't enough genetic freak (be it size or athleticism) to play in the NBA under its silly rules. That has little to do with the quality of the college players while they were in college. JJ Redick and Steve Alford were unbelievable college players who will not/did not get it done in the NBA. Adam Morrison will be decent at best. Fazekas, same story. Does that in any way diminish what they accomplished at the college level for their respective universities? Should we adjust a part of our jersey retirement criterion to include performance at the NBA level. That's ridiculous. The NBA game is bent upon one on one athletic play made for tv, while the college / international games don't handicap defenses so that they can't take advantage of current players' weaknesses.

The NBA stars will roll everyone at full strength is absurd and who cares, since I'm only blathering. But since you picked up that yoke, this past year's team was full of NBA all-stars / media headliners and they didn't get it done when playing by actual basketball rules, where the ability to shoot, block out, screen, back off of players who can only drive etc. actually make a difference. That team had LBJ, Wade, Anthony, AI, Duncan, Bosh etc. Clearly a more athletic team than anyone else in the world could even dream of assembling (granted, I would only guard one of them outside of 15 feet). They didn't get it done because the games of our "best" have eroded into drive, dunk or drive, get fouled, make 1 of 2 at the line.

1. The people who put together the criteria for retiring numbers at UT obviously felt an NBA career was important.
2. Iverson didn't play last summer. Neither did a bunch of our best players, due to the fact Colangelo and Coach K listened to guys like you about how we needed more "team" players. That's how we ended up with dreck like Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier wearing the red, white, and blue.

 

[VOLinthaNATI]

you're welcome to pick up some nitnoid trivial rules and shift the argument away from the atrocious representation of basketball that the NBA has become and the uselessness of NBA success as a measure of a players accomplishments at the college level, but it will not make you any more correct.

As if the lane and basket interference somehow impacted our getting our lunches handed to us by the likes of Puerto Rico.

Putting Ernie Grunfeld on the same billing with Bernard King would be comparable to giving John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band co-headlining status with Bruce Springsteen.

Yeah, when I think real rules, the first things I think of are a trapezoid lane and no basket interference rules. That's what I grew up with.

opcorn: This is great...:hi:

 

[hatvol96]

you're welcome to pick up some nitnoid trivial rules and shift the argument away from the atrocious representation of basketball that the NBA has become and the uselessness of NBA success as a measure of a players accomplishments at the college level, but it will not make you any more correct.

As if the lane and basket interference somehow impacted our getting our lunches handed to us by the likes of Puerto Rico.

Let's see any country in the world guard Shaq, Duncan, et al on the real block. The Olympics are played by those silly international rules because they can't compete with the US under any other circumstances. Further, if the international guys are so great, why do all of their pro leagues have quotas limiting the number of Americans on each team? For a simple reason, American players would have 90% of the jobs in the elite European Leagues if not for legislated maximums.

 

[TN Vol 0320]

Let's see any country in the world guard Shaq, Duncan, et al on the real block. The Olympics are played by those silly international rules because they can't compete with the US under any other circumstances. Further, if the international guys are so great, why do all of their pro leagues have quotas limiting the number of Americans on each team? For a simple reason, American players would have 90% of the jobs in the elite European Leagues if not for legislated maximums.

Yeah. Major Wingate is playing PROFESSIONALLY there.

Pipe that in your smoke and put it.

 

[BigPapaVol]

1. The people who put together the criteria for retiring numbers at UT obviously felt an NBA career was important.
2. Iverson didn't play last summer. Neither did a bunch of our best players, due to the fact Colangelo and Coach K listened to guys like you about how we needed more "team" players. That's how we ended up with dreck like Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier wearing the red, white, and blue.

1. It was the first UT ever retired and they picked BK because he was easily the best player in the history of the school. He was an all american for the entirety of his career at UT. How's this for an argument. BK stole stuff while at UT, hence, the panel retiring jerseys must have used stealing as a part of their criteria for selecting players for jersey retirement.
2. My apologies on AI, the team he led had already been killed by also rans. As for the rest, you couldn't be more off base. We lost because our "go to" guys can't shoot (save Anthony and he's streaky) and won't play any defense, but we have to make them the focus of the game plan because USA basketball is a very media driven entity. My team wouldn't have a bunch of drive first slasher types that play little to no D and can't shoot when opposing teams can play true zone D. Wouldn't go to any game with that crowd in tow, unless they're playing by NBA rules. I don't give a rip about Bruce Bowen, but I would take Battier in international competition all day long over LBJ because he can shoot and he plays D. Oh by the by, that dreck was college POY and a national champ, should Duke disown him because he's not the best NBA player from his year group.
You rave about Ramar Smith being this and that over the next couple of years. He'll never even remotely compare to Battier as a college basketball player.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

JMO, but I had more respect for the concept of retired numbers when the only persons to receive the honor from UT were people who died fighting for the U.S.A.

...dismounting soapbox.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Let's see any country in the world guard Shaq, Duncan, et al on the real block. The Olympics are played by those silly international rules because they can't compete with the US under any other circumstances. Further, if the international guys are so great, why do all of their pro leagues have quotas limiting the number of Americans on each team? For a simple reason, American players would have 90% of the jobs in the elite European Leagues if not for legislated maximums.

Again you move away from the argument, but I'll oblige. I'm not arguing in favor of the internationals nor their game. Our teams, which are always the most talented on the floor, get beat, with or without Colangelo thinking like me. Guarding Shaq or Duncan on the block is never going to be easy, but the need for that goes down as opponents get to pack their zones tighter and tighter, then foul either of the two a let them make their 1 out of 2 from the line. I'm not arguing that the internationals are great. I'm arguing that our esteemed NBA studs aren't as great as you make them out to be in your arguing that status as an NBA player is the only measure of a player. As for the legislated maxes on the players, Europeans do not want to go see squads of Americans playing hoops. They struggle with attendance at hoops they way we do with soccer. Their only hope at keeping any attendance at all is to have some locals playing who can keep the home crowd interested. What does that have to do with the NBA as a measuring stick for college basketball players? Nada, zilch, zippo.

You sing the praises of Durant as the best college basketball player, yet Oden is going make a bigger impact at the NBA level. Why is that? Durant's going to be the player of the year and if I were building a team for the college game, I would begin with Durant. What gives? The scouts, save a couple, want Oden first, but Durant will be the POY. How can that be? Redick was easily last year's POY, but nowhere near the top pick. Strange pattern here.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Yeah. Major Wingate is playing PROFESSIONALLY there.

Pipe that in your smoke and put it.

You make my point exactly. By every measure, they shouldn't be on the floor with our teams, but somehow we keep losing to them. That's not all upset style fortune. There's something to it.

 

[hatvol96]

Again you move away from the argument, but I'll oblige. I'm not arguing in favor of the internationals nor their game. Our teams, which are always the most talented on the floor, get beat, with or without Colangelo thinking like me. Guarding Shaq or Duncan on the block is never going to be easy, but the need for that goes down as opponents get to pack their zones tighter and tighter, then foul either of the two a let them make their 1 out of 2 from the line. I'm not arguing that the internationals are great. I'm arguing that our esteemed NBA studs aren't as great as you make them out to be in your arguing that status as an NBA player is the only measure of a player. As for the legislated maxes on the players, Europeans do not want to go see squads of Americans playing hoops. They struggle with attendance at hoops they way we do with soccer. Their only hope at keeping any attendance at all is to have some locals playing who can keep the home crowd interested. What does that have to do with the NBA as a measuring stick for college basketball players? Nada, zilch, zippo.

You sing the praises of Durant as the best college basketball player, yet Oden is going make a bigger impact at the NBA level. Why is that? Durant's going to be the player of the year and if I were building a team for the college game, I would begin with Durant. What gives? The scouts, save a couple, want Oden first, but Durant will be the POY. How can that be? Redick was easily last year's POY, but nowhere near the top pick. Strange pattern here.

I'm not going to grant that Oden will make more impact. Yao Ming certainly hasn't had more impact on the game than Dwayne Wade. Scouts and GMs will almost always take a big for the simple reason that they are more scarce. If you don't take Durant, you can at least find a competent player to play the 3 or 4 for you. If you pass on Oden, you might wake up and realize you're starting Jake Tskalidias or Rasho Nesterovic. I can also say with absolute certainty that it's more than a couple of scouts who prefer Durant to Oden.

 

[hatvol96]

You make my point exactly. By every measure, they shouldn't be on the floor with our teams, but somehow we keep losing to them. That's not all upset style fortune. There's something to it.

I'm pretty certain that the fact that other national teams, for example Argentina, have been playing together since most of those guys were in their early teens, while we throw teams together in about 6 weeks has something to do with it. You want to see total annihilation at the Olympics? Move basketball to the Winter Games and let the defending NBA Champions have two weeks off to go represent the US. Unless that champion is the Spurs, nobody would play them a game within 15. I only say that about the Spurs because you would have to bring someone in to replace Parker and Ginobli, thus somewhat blunting the continuity factor.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I'm pretty certain that the fact that other national teams, for example Argentina, have been playing together since most of those guys were in their early teens, while we throw teams together in about 6 weeks has something to do with it. You want to see total annihilation at the Olympics? Move basketball to the Winter Games and let the defending NBA Champions have two weeks off to go represent the US. Unless that champion is the Spurs, nobody would play them a game within 15. I only say that about the Spurs because you would have to bring someone in to replace Parker and Ginobli, thus somewhat blunting the continuity factor.

While I agree that a vast majority of the TEAMS in the NBA would do as well as a mish mash of All-Stars, I do not believe that the level of basketball is as good here today, certainly on a relative basis, as it has been in the past. Our athleticism is absolutely amazing and has never been better, but our basketball understanding, execution and fundamentals are woefully inadequate. I think a team would fare somewhat better, but modern NBA teams aren't built to compete with teams that play good, aggressive zone defenses, shoot the 3 well and use big men (good shooting big men) to trigger offense from the top of the key or the wing.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I'm not going to grant that Oden will make more impact. Yao Ming certainly hasn't had more impact on the game than Dwayne Wade. Scouts and GMs will almost always take a big for the simple reason that they are more scarce. If you don't take Durant, you can at least find a competent player to play the 3 or 4 for you. If you pass on Oden, you might wake up and realize you're starting Jake Tskalidias or Rasho Nesterovic. I can also say with absolute certainty that it's more than a couple of scouts who prefer Durant to Oden.

If they take them based upon scarcity, Mr. Gray at Pitt will be taken before Durant as well. It's not just scarcity of big men, it's scarcity of athletic big men who alter entire offensive schemes because going to the hole is a different proposition with an Oden in the middle.
Personally, I hate Oden's game more than Shaq's and would rather watch women play, but they can and do dominate. Who am I to argue with domination?

 

[hatvol96]

While I agree that a vast majority of the TEAMS in the NBA would do as well as a mish mash of All-Stars, I do not believe that the level of basketball is as good here today, certainly on a relative basis, as it has been in the past. Our athleticism is absolutely amazing and has never been better, but our basketball understanding, execution and fundamentals are woefully inadequate. I think a team would fare somewhat better, but modern NBA teams aren't built to compete with teams that play good, aggressive zone defenses, shoot the 3 well and use big men (good shooting big men) to trigger offense from the top of the key or the wing.

With the exception of Argentina, please name an international team that plays any defense, zone or otherwise. I might give you Spain, but the Eastern Euros and the South Americans play defense like rec league teams. That's why guys like Kobe Bryant and Ray Allen will shoot them into oblivion in Beijing. Dallas triggers their offense with as good a shooting big man as has ever played, how many titles do they have now?

 

[hatvol96]

If they take them based upon scarcity, Mr. Gray at Pitt will be taken before Durant as well. It's not just scarcity of big men, it's scarcity of athletic big men who alter entire offensive schemes because going to the hole is a different proposition with an Oden in the middle.
Personally, I hate Oden's game more than Shaq's and would rather watch women play, but they can and do dominate. Who am I to argue with domination?

I don't think Gray is that much better than the guys I mentioned as journymen. He'll be Eric Montross. Take up a roster space, bang around for a few minutes a night, and make some nice coin. There are a bunch of guys as good as Aaron Gray already in the League.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I don't think Gray is that much better than the guys I mentioned as journymen. He'll be Eric Montross. Take up a roster space, bang around for a few minutes a night, and make some nice coin. There are a bunch of guys as good as Aaron Gray already in the League.

That's the point. It's not the lack of bigs, it's the lack of athletic, defensive game changing bigs that will drive them to take Oden.

 

[volfan2024]

I got to thinking today that it really didn't seem right to retire one without the other. I know that #22 will be retired in a few years, but those two were maybe the best college basketball duo of all time. They really fed off each other and made each other better....I understand wanting to retire a number every 5 years, but it looks like they would have brought them together at one time.

thoughts?

My neighbor (UT grad) that attended school with them, thought both player's jerseys should have been retired.

 

[hatvol96]

That's the point. It's not the lack of bigs, it's the lack of athletic, defensive game changing bigs that will drive them to take Oden.

That's exactly the point I was making. There's only one guy out there right now like Oden. I believe that may be the very definition of scarcity.