Abortion

#26
#26
San Diego Vol said:
My wife is currently 25 weeks pregnant. We have seen 3D images and it is a fully developed child just growing bigger at this point. The baby has all organs, skin, hair, eyes, etc. It can smell, hear, etc. I would definitely consider abortion at this stage murder. I don't know what the cutoff should be, but my opinion would be closer to none after the first trimester.
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Is it murder to kill any being with organs, skin, hair, and eyes?
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#28
#28
What if it's 30 weeks, but it's prematurely born? I don't get why leaving the womb is the cutoff. Surely that's not where consciousness starts. I don't know. I'm no expert.
 
#33
#33
San Diego Vol said:
My reference would be the bible, but can't answer that for everyone.
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What does the Bible say that distinguishes Man from Beast? The Soul. How does the Bible say that Man gets this Soul? Through breath.

I am not sure the Bible is helping you with the argument. The tired Scripture regarding God's knowledge before you were formed in the womb could just as well be stated that God knew you before your parents met, were born, etc. The application of that verse to the abortion debate is a self-interested stretch.
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#37
#37
bamawriter said:
I'd love to know how one determines "soul".
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I would too. It would take more than a volume to expound the doctrine of the soul (feel free to read De Anima), so I will praphrase. Soul, by definition, cannot be split and is immaterial. It has no component parts. Therefore, if there is soul in the womb, then there is either soul in sperm, ova, or there is a supernatural event within the womb. At what point this occurs, I cannot determine and no machine or technology will be able to determine. Therefore, I judge when the soul is obviously, in my opinion, present. This takes place post birth.
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#38
#38
therealUT said:
This takes place post birth.
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It's fine to define it that way.

But you mentioned breath earlier. What if the child is born not breathing, and before the doctor has a chance to perform CPR or make any other attempt to induce breathing, the mother has a change of heart and requests that the doc let the child die? Is that permissible?
 
#39
#39
I say it is okay up to 3 months because by then you know.
 
#40
#40
This issue tears me up. I'm the proud father of a 22 month old little boy that I adore. It was a planned pregnancy. I was with my wife for every ultrasound and I tell you what - each ultrasound showed an amazing little human - even the first one - he looked like a little astronaut floating in space. I realize that is personification inspired by a happy heart. But I could imagine taking that little guys life.

But I get shaky on the pro life movement. If the argument is religious - I doesn't hold weight for me. I want people to be free from other peoples religious beliefs. But if someone makes a scientific decision -hearbeat, brain waives, awareness - I can handle that.

I guess you can see I'm conflicted.
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#41
#41
My youngest son was born at just short of 30 weeks (29weeks 4days) so they tell me. He did just fine after delivery. That's him in the avatar pic. For me that proves life in the 3rd trimester.
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#42
#42
Murder probably isn't the right word. Just as it's not the right word for capital punishment or military deaths it's not the right word for this situation.

So, we know that man has determined situations where it is okay to take human life. For me the questions of interest are:

1. When is it human life? I have to believe that occurs prior to actual birth but when does a fetus become life? I simply do not know.

2. What conditions justify taking human life? Health of the mother is a no-brainer for me since it falls back to a self-defense argument. Rape? Tough call. Want to go to college and a baby will make that hard? Does not justify.

So in the end it's a balancing of rights. I'm comfortable with late-term (last trimester) abortion bans except in health of the mother, severe birth defects that prevent cognition, etc. I'm iffy about rape as a reason and would hope the pregnancy would be discovered prior to this time.

EDIT: Personally, I don't see any religious connection for me. I understand that others tie it to religion but I see no reason it has to be.
 
#43
#43
Love this thread. and let me correct myself - I asked my gf what she wanted to do. My opinions on abortion aren't strong enough to outweigh my reluctance in being a parent when I'm not financially capable.
 
#45
#45
KiffinKiller said:
Love this thread. and let me correct myself - I asked my gf what she wanted to do. My opinions on abortion aren't strong enough to outweigh my reluctance in being a parent when I'm not financially capable.
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Here's where I have the biggest ethical problem. I don't know the answer but in my gut I don't think this is a sufficient reason if we are talking late stage.
 
#46
#46
KiffinKiller said:
My opinions on abortion aren't strong enough to outweigh my reluctance in being a parent when I'm not financially capable.
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Not to be a jerk, because I'm sure it's a tough thing to deal with, but you do know that sex can lead to pregnancy, right? You can be as safe about it as possible, but I'm sure you're aware that nothing is 100% effective.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but it drives me crazy when people say "I'm not ready to raise a child". If you aren't ready to be a parent, you aren't ready to have sex. The former doesn't happen without the latter.

I'm absolutely convinced that we need to require licences for sex in this country.
 
#47
#47
therealUT said:
I am okay with abortion by anyone, anytime. Feel free to answer the question, though.
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Yea I figured you would answer it like that. Let people get out of the problems they have create for themselves by a procedures. Your opinion allows people to be irresponsible and not handle their own problem.

I do believe if somebody is raped and they can prove it that it is a viable option.(should be a right)

What class of people does the most obortions come from?(low, middle, higher)
 
#48
#48
volinbham said:
Here's where I have the biggest ethical problem. I don't know the answer but in my gut I don't think this is a sufficient reason if we are talking late stage.
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that's fine. I agree with you. I'm talking first two weeks and it turned out she wasn't pregnant.
 
#50
#50
bamawriter said:
Not to be a jerk, because I'm sure it's a tough thing to deal with, but you do know that sex can lead to pregnancy, right? You can be as safe about it as possible, but I'm sure you're aware that nothing is 100% effective.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but it drives me crazy when people say "I'm not ready to raise a child". If you aren't ready to be a parent, you aren't ready to have sex. The former doesn't happen without the latter.

I'm absolutely convinced that we need to require licences for sex in this country.
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thanks for the lecture, dad. I will continue to use condoms and my gf will continue to use birth control. Are you a small govt guy?
 
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