Not espn's fault that manning lost the heisman?

#276
#276
therealUT said:
And, Scottie Pippen says that LeBron is the best ever.

In my opinion, if I were building a team to win multiple Superbowls, Manning is not the QB I would go with. If I were building a team to wreak havoc on passing records, I would pick Manning.
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I know you are a smart guy, but you are being a contrarian just for the sake of it in this thread.

I can use my eyes too. Manning took what is likely the most average all-around football team in history to the Superbowl. That New Orleans took a bunch of gambles that all rolled Sevens on the night, that Indy team would have been the most average team to ever win a Superbowl. If dude just fields the offside kick, it would have been over.

You could see on the field Manning single handedly create that season and drag that team to the Superbowl. I've never, ever seen a QB do that in the league.
 
#277
#277
utgibbs said:
I know you are a smart guy, but you are being a contrarian just for the sake of it in this thread.

I can use my eyes too. Manning took what is likely the most average all-around football team in history to the Superbowl. That New Orleans took a bunch of gambles that all rolled Sevens on the night, that Indy team would have been the most average team to ever win a Superbowl. If dude just fields the offside kick, it would have been over.

You could see on the field Manning single handedly create that season and drag that team to the Superbowl. I've never, ever seen a QB do that in the league.
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I really feel strange agreeing with you on any subject but you're on target with this one. The Colts offense got them to two Super Bowls despite having severly hamstrung defenses. Don't they all say defense wins championships?
 
#278
#278
Just one more quick word regarding this thread:

NO ONE in the history of the Heisman Trophy did less to earn it than Charles Woodson. Peerless Price easily doubled the number of big plays in 1998 - on special teams as well -that Woodson had that year.

It is rightly a complete embarassment to the sports periphereal establishment that Manning did not get the Heisman. It was done to create a story, that is all. And it does (and rightly) shame every hack who voted to create a sensation rather than do the right thing.
 
#281
#281
utgibbs said:
I can use my eyes too. Manning took what is likely the most average all-around football team in history to the Superbowl. That New Orleans took a bunch of gambles that all rolled Sevens on the night, that Indy team would have been the most average team to ever win a Superbowl. If dude just fields the offside kick, it would have been over.
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if Freeney's ankle had been healthy, giving him 4 good quarters instead of one, it would have been over.
 
#282
#282
utgibbs said:
Just one more quick word regarding this thread:

NO ONE in the history of the Heisman Trophy did less to earn it than Charles Woodson. Peerless Price easily doubled the number of big plays in 1998 - on special teams as well -that Woodson had that year.

It is rightly a complete embarassment to the sports periphereal establishment that Manning did not get the Heisman. It was done to create a story, that is all. And it does (and rightly) shame every hack who voted to create a sensation rather than do the right thing.
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well said
 
#283
#283
tm3 said:
well, he was, allowing 60+ points in 95 and 35 straight in 96.

not to mention all of the jay graham fumbles that PM caused.
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It always baffled me how Jay Graham played like Walter Payton against Bama, but played like Walter Cronkite against UF.
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#284
#284
utgibbs said:
Just one more quick word regarding this thread:

NO ONE in the history of the Heisman Trophy did less to earn it than Charles Woodson. Peerless Price easily doubled the number of big plays in 1998 - on special teams as well -that Woodson had that year.

It is rightly a complete embarassment to the sports periphereal establishment that Manning did not get the Heisman. It was done to create a story, that is all. And it does (and rightly) shame every hack who voted to create a sensation rather than do the right thing.
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I agree and this is the reason I asked about Champ Bailey and Carl Pickens. Both of them had better numbers and meant as much or more for their teams. If you don't consider those guys, you don't consider Woodson..period. End of story. I don't want to hear about his side of the field not being thrown to in freaking college. Can you say prime...time....? Why didn't he win it then? You cannot, in any rational way, argue that Woodson should have won it. It's quite likely a defensive player will never win it again. I just hope that we soon have a QB or RB that is so incredibly good they have no choice but to give it to us...at which point I want that person to respectfully decline to accept it because of what happened to Peyton Manning...man that would be nice.
 
#285
#285
99bubble said:
I just hope that we soon have a QB or RB that is so incredibly good they have no choice but to give it to us...at which point I want that person to respectfully decline to accept it because of what happened to Peyton Manning...man that would be nice.
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I'd rather have National Championships. Give me Tee Martin and a 13-0 season any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
 
#287
#287
utgibbs said:
I know you are a smart guy, but you are being a contrarian just for the sake of it in this thread.

I can use my eyes too. Manning took what is likely the most average all-around football team in history to the Superbowl. That New Orleans took a bunch of gambles that all rolled Sevens on the night, that Indy team would have been the most average team to ever win a Superbowl. If dude just fields the offside kick, it would have been over.

You could see on the field Manning single handedly create that season and drag that team to the Superbowl. I've never, ever seen a QB do that in the league.
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I'll grant you Manning carried the team, but instead of driving down his team to victory, he threw the pick that sealed the loss. Manning also is nortorious for being average in the playoffs. I'm glad he got his ring and all, and yes he'll set several NFL records, but unless something changes he's definitely not going to be known as a clutch QB when it matters.
 
#288
#288
VolsSportsFan said:
I'll grant you Manning carried the team, but instead of driving down his team to victory, he threw the pick that sealed the loss. Manning also is nortorious for being average in the playoffs. I'm glad he got his ring and all, and yes he'll set several NFL records, but unless something changes he's definitely not going to be known as a clutch QB when it matters.
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Right, it's not like he holds these playoff records:

Most 300+ yard passing games: 8
Most 400+ yard passing games: 2 (tied with Dan Marino)
Most yards passing, 1st half of game: 360 vs. Denver Broncos, 1/9/05
Led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history (18 pts), 1/21/07 vs. New England
One of only four QBs to post a perfect 158.3 passer rating in a game (Don Meredith, Terry Bradshaw, Dave Krieg)
Most games with 20+ completions: 14
Most games with 30+ completions: 4
Most games with 30+ attempts: 17
Most games with 40+ attempts: 8
Most completions and attempts in a single postseason: 97/153 (2006)
One of only 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Kurt Warner)

or that he has the most 4th quarter comeback wins in NFL history (35) or the most 4th quarter comeback wins in a season (2009)

but why let facts get in the way.
 
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#290
#290
ENGRVOL said:
Right, it's not like he holds these playoff records:

Most 300+ yard passing games: 8
Most 400+ yard passing games: 2 (tied with Dan Marino)
Most yards passing, 1st half of game: 360 vs. Denver Broncos, 1/9/05
Led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history (18 pts), 1/21/07 vs. New England
One of only four QBs to post a perfect 158.3 passer rating in a game (Don Meredith, Terry Bradshaw, Dave Krieg)
Most games with 20+ completions: 14
Most games with 30+ completions: 4
Most games with 30+ attempts: 17
Most games with 40+ attempts: 8
Most completions and attempts in a single postseason: 97/153 (2006)
One of only 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Kurt Warner)

or that he has the most 4th quarter comeback wins in NFL history (35) or the most 4th quarter comeback wins in a season (2009)

but why let facts get in the way.
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Regular season comebacks aren't going to help your argument too much. The comeback against the Patriots was great, but he's not exactly the most clutch quarterback. I love Manning, and I hope he wins some more super bowls, but at this point, I'll take Tom Brady's career over his in a heartbeat.
 
#291
#291
tvolsfan said:
Regular season comebacks aren't going to help your argument too much. The comeback against the Patriots was great, but he's not exactly the most clutch quarterback. I love Manning, and I hope he wins some more super bowls, but at this point, I'll take Tom Brady's career over his in a heartbeat.
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Manning's thrown 1 pick in the playoffs in a possible game-winning situation. Brady's done it twice.

QB's don't win titles. Teams do. Brady's career is evidence of that. The last 5 years have been the prime of his career, In his prime, Brady is 4-3 in the playoffs and has 0 SB's. The "choker" Manning is 6-4 and has 1 Super Bowl over that same stretch.
 
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#292
#292
What's great is Berry's stats when he was a sophmore were better than Woodson's when he won the Heisman... No Heisman love for Berry though.
 
#293
#293
nbakerld said:
Manning's thrown 1 pick in the playoffs in a possible game-winning situation. Brady's done it twice.

QB's don't win titles. Teams do. Brady's career is evidence of that. The last 5 years have been the prime of his career, In his prime, Brady is 4-3 in the playoffs and has 0 SB's. The "choker" Manning is 6-4 and has 1 Super Bowl over that same stretch.
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Thank you for making that point; I couldn't agree more. Brady has been the beneficiary of playing on more complete teams than Peyton. As injury-riddled as the Colts have been, and as porous as their defense has been, it is remarkable what Peyton has done the last couple of years to get them as deep into the playoffs as they have gone.

I have made the argument before and I will make it again. The use of Super Bowl championships as the ultimate measuring stick for quarterbacks is one of the most specious arguments in all of sports.
 
#294
#294
ejvols4 said:
What's great is Berry's stats when he was a sophmore were better than Woodson's when he won the Heisman... No Heisman love for Berry though.
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I agree completely. Woodson's contributions on offense and special teams were nominal. Unfortunately, he had his biggest game on the biggest stage at the end of the season. I will also make the argument that, simply by virtue of the position, no cornerback is deserving of the Heisman. The very best will take one receiver completely out of the game; they aren't as involved in run support as a safety.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that no defensive player would ever be worthy of the Heisman. A linebacker like Cornelius Bennett or Lawrence Taylor, who can roam from sideline to sideline and is so disruptive that offensive coordinators have to fundamentally revise the game planning process, is far more worthy of consideration of that award than a cornerback.
 
#295
#295
some have also opined that a vote for chalres was not at all about who was the better player --it was a vote for affirmative action and political correctness.
 
#296
#296
therealUT said:
If the Heisman were a career award, then Manning would have deserved it. It is a single season award, though; Woodson was not only a better player but a more spectacular player than Manning was throughout that season.
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Woodson was ranked in the 40's somewhere in terms of kick return yards that year.
 
#297
#297
nbakerld said:
Manning's thrown 1 pick in the playoffs in a possible game-winning situation. Brady's done it twice.

QB's don't win titles. Teams do. Brady's career is evidence of that. The last 5 years have been the prime of his career, In his prime, Brady is 4-3 in the playoffs and has 0 SB's. The "choker" Manning is 6-4 and has 1 Super Bowl over that same stretch.
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Manning's was in the Super Bowl, in the biggest stage possible.

You can argue all you want the QB's don't win titles, but the fact is that is how QBs are measured.
 
#298
#298
Rasputin_Vol said:
Woodson was ranked in the 40's somewhere in terms of kick return yards that year.
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He was also the best shut down corner in the game and an incredible run-support corner as well. That combination is extremely rare for corners.

Persons who are trying to compare Berry's stats to Woodson's have a fundamental misunderstanding of the two positions in question: CB and S. I have never heard the term "shutdown safety" because the idea is non-existent. Good safeties should have a handful of interceptions, a dozen or more deflections, and scores of tackles. A great CB, on the other hand, is avoided by good offensive game-planners, thus limiting their "statistical impact".

Woodson was the best player in the NCAA from Sep-Dec 1997.
 
#299
#299
therealUT said:
He was also the best shut down corner in the game and an incredible run-support corner as well. That combination is extremely rare for corners.

Persons who are trying to compare Berry's stats to Woodson's have a fundamental misunderstanding of the two positions in question: CB and S. I have never heard the term "shutdown safety" because the idea is non-existent. Good safeties should have a handful of interceptions, a dozen or more deflections, and scores of tackles. A great CB, on the other hand, is avoided by good offensive game-planners, thus limiting their "statistical impact".

Woodson was the best player in the NCAA from Sep-Dec 1997.
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he wasnt even the best defensive back statistically that year, dre bly was.
 
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