(8) Pacers vs. (1) Bulls

#151
#151
lylsmorr said:
#1 player this season. And to say plus/minus is useless is pretty funny when you were throwing out shooting percentages. They win when he is on the floor. Pretty telling stat.
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Why? +/- is determined by who he is playing with. FG% is determined by how well he shoots. They also win when Boozer is on the floor, but he's not MVP.

47-12 with Booze (.797), 15-8 without him (.652). Without Boozer, that's 53 wins good enough for 4th in the East. No Booze, no MVP for Rose. Kind of stupid the way MVP is voted. He's not even the best PG in the league this year, but he's flashy and he's on the best team, thus MVP.
 
#152
#152
nbakerld said:
Why? +/- is determined by who he is playing with. FG% is determined by how well he shoots. They also win when Boozer is on the floor, but he's not MVP.

47-12 with Booze (.797), 15-8 without him (.652). Without Boozer, that's 53 wins good enough for 4th in the East. No Booze, no MVP for Rose. Kind of stupid the way MVP is voted. He's not even the best PG in the league this year, but he's flashy and he's on the best team, thus MVP.
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:eek:lol:
 
#154
#154
VOLinthaATL said:
:eek:lol:
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It's so funny, right? If he is MVP, what does he do that makes him MVP? He wins, right? Well that's a team thing. So what does he do well?

Pass the ball? Yeah, he's pretty good at it. He has a decent A:TO ratio, but not even close to MVP worthy*.

Score? Yeah he scores a lot, but it takes him a **** ton of shots to score a lot, so that doesn't make him MVP worthy.

Defense? 1.0 spg, 0.6 bpg, 4.1 rpg, and 1.7 fpg. Defense isn't making him MVP, though his fouls per game is very efficient.

Tell me what, besides his team's wins, makes him MVP worthy?

*Chris Paul = 4.45:1, Derrick Rose = 2.26:1
 
#157
#157
Bulls this season, 0-5 without Rose. 0-6 when he plays less than 10 minutes.

Case closed.
 
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#159
#159
nbakerld said:
Wait what? You are saying the officials are responsible for Wade and Lebron outshooting Kobe?

Even with Kobe getting every call, and having Gasol, Bynum, and Odom to distract the defense, Lebron on the Cavs dramatically outshoots Kobe.

You are being fooled by how sweet Kobe's stroke looks. It's all about how often it goes in the hoop. Think Reggie Miller. Lebron has outshot Kobe from 3 pt for 2 straight seasons, and that's not even what makes Lebron an efficient scorer.
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Their FT shooting will tell you much about the quality of their strokes. Shot selection is an entirely different animal. LeBron's defaults to the hole, while Kobe defaults to a fadeaway. It's borderline stupid to pretend the LeBron or Wade can purely shoot with Kobe. Game stats, which are all about context have nothing to do with it. You're in here pretending that Stockton can shoot with Nash, which is absurd. Larry Bird had some sub .50 years too, but he's still one of the best shooters ever. Shaq used to toss it up there at .60 and he's the worst shooter ever.
 
#160
#160
That's because Shaq's job has always been just to stand there with his heel on the key until somebody fed him the ball. Playing D on him has always been like trying to sneak up behind a grizzly bear and steal a grape.
 
#161
#161
VOLinthaATL said:
Is that you Danny Granger?

2011 NBA Playoffs: Indiana Pacers forward Danny Granger said Chicago Bulls center Joakim Noah was cowardly - ESPN Chicago
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lol

While I agree with what he said, I wasn't a fan of Granger saying it. I whine all the time as a fan. But that's because I sit at home and watch it for amusement. I have nothing to gain or lose. Granger is making a lot of money and should suck it up.

I do love Granger though. He and Hansbrough carried the team. I don't know what Hibbert and Collison were doing.

At least they were able to win a game and get some experience. Since I've sobered up and have accepted the loss, I'll be more sincere in saying "Congrats Chicago".
 
#162
#162
BigPapaVol said:
Their FT shooting will tell you much about the quality of their strokes. Shot selection is an entirely different animal. LeBron's defaults to the hole, while Kobe defaults to a fadeaway. It's borderline stupid to pretend the LeBron or Wade can purely shoot with Kobe. Game stats, which are all about context have nothing to do with it. You're in here pretending that Stockton can shoot with Nash, which is absurd. Larry Bird had some sub .50 years too, but he's still one of the best shooters ever. Shaq used to toss it up there at .60 and he's the worst shooter ever.
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Yeah, some sub .50 years. KOBE HAS NEVER SHOT .50!

Shot selection factors in. I don't care if Kobe can outshoot Lebron in a shoot-around. I care who puts the ball in the hole more frequently come game time. Kobe can keep the title of H-O-R-S-E champion.
 
#163
#163
VOLinthaATL said:
Without Derrick Rose the Bulls are a below .500 team. That makes him MVP. Period.
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How do you know that?

lylsmorr said:
Bulls this season, 0-5 without Rose. 0-6 when he plays less than 10 minutes.

Case closed.
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Bulls were 0-1 without Rose this year. You are counting games from his .500 teams that weren't all that good. They've added Boozer, Korver, and Brewer who are all very productive. Noah has also developed into a great player.

Rose's rookie year was very good and probably his best. .475 FG, 16 ppg, and 2.54:1 assist/turnover ratio.
 
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#164
#164
therealUT said:
Without Rose, C.J. Watson would be in the starting five; therefore, he would be as good or better than Rose.
:ermm:
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Without Rose, the Bulls would not start Watson, they would have signed or drafted a different PG.

Rose makes the Bulls better and was their best player this year. My only argument is that he's not MVP and that the Bulls would be a lot better if he shot less on off-nights and passed more (strangely he shoots more when he shoots poorly).
 
#166
#166
nbakerld said:
Without Rose, the Bulls would not start Watson, they would have signed or drafted a different PG.

Rose makes the Bulls better and was their best player this year. My only argument is that he's not MVP and that the Bulls would be a lot better if he shot less on off-nights and passed more (strangely he shoots more when he shoots poorly).
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You can argue it 'til you're blue in the face, but he'll be the MVP.
 
#167
#167
nbakerld said:
Yeah, some sub .50 years. KOBE HAS NEVER SHOT .50!

Shot selection factors in. I don't care if Kobe can outshoot Lebron in a shoot-around. I care who puts the ball in the hole more frequently come game time. Kobe can keep the title of H-O-R-S-E champion.
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Kobe has been the best offensive player in the NBA for the better part of a decade.
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#168
#168
BigPapaVol said:
Kobe has been the best offensive player in the NBA for the better part of a decade.
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Nope. He doesn't shoot a high enough %, and he's not an efficient passer. He's never had an A:TO ratio of over 2:1 which is breaking even as a ballhandler.

Kobe's ranking among SG's in true shooting % the last 9 years:

25th
28th
23rd
13th
15th
18th
14th
10th
18th

Would you say Pujols was the best offensive player of the decade if he had only ranked once in top 10 OBP among first basemen?

You say this about Kobe because he's taken the most shots the last 10 years.

Hollinger's NBA Player Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN
 
#171
#171
baker, you have to come to grips with the fact that the NBA is set up to be dominated by clutch scorers. Kobe does that at an all-time level. He's never been a great player through three quarters, but if his team is in striking distance in the fourth quarter, more often than not, he simply wills them to win.

Again, stats will never provide you with a complete understanding of the game. This ain't baseball.
 
#172
#172
milohimself said:
baker, you have to come to grips with the fact that the NBA is set up to be dominated by clutch scorers. Kobe does that at an all-time level. He's never been a great player through three quarters, but if his team is in striking distance in the fourth quarter, more often than not, he simply wills them to win.

Again, stats will never provide you with a complete understanding of the game. This ain't baseball.
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If you dont know a ballplayer from an antelope, you spout stats religiously.
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#173
#173
milohimself said:
baker, you have to come to grips with the fact that the NBA is set up to be dominated by clutch scorers. Kobe does that at an all-time level. He's never been a great player through three quarters, but if his team is in striking distance in the fourth quarter, more often than not, he simply wills them to win.

Again, stats will never provide you with a complete understanding of the game. This ain't baseball.
Click to expand...

BigPapaVol said:
If you dont know a ballplayer from an antelope, you spout stats religiously.
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Game Winning Shot Opportunities = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Lebron = 17 of 50, 6 assists, 4 TO's
Kobe = 14 of 56, 1 assist, 5 TO's

Hmmm, these pesky stats...

NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players
 
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#174
#174
nbakerld said:
Game Winning Shot Opportunities = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Lebron = 17 of 50
Kobe = 14 of 56

Hmmm, these pesky stats...

NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players
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First, those stats are only from 2003-2008. Kobe has been in the league since 1996.

Up through 2008, Kobe had made 21 game winners in his career, to Michael Jordan's 22.

You conveniently leave out the fact that, at that time, Lebron and Kobe were also 4 for 8 on game winners in the playoffs.

Hmm...pesky details.
 
#175
#175
nbakerld said:
Game Winning Shot Opportunities = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Lebron = 17 of 50, 6 assists, 4 TO's
Kobe = 14 of 56, 1 assist, 5 TO's

Hmmm, these pesky stats...

NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players
Click to expand...

What a pathetic effort at boiling down ballplayers. I've said jack about game Winning shots, which are rare and an awful barometer.
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