Why Private Health Care doesn't work

#226
#226
droski said:
none of these countries had the US access to cutting edge technologies before going to universal healthcare. in most of these countries no one has ever lived without it. i.e. they don't know any better.
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The lack of advancement in technology has been a problem since the late 70's in Canada due to Public health care, not to mention being "readily availible".
 
#227
#227
droski said:
none of these countries had the US access to cutting edge technologies before going to universal healthcare. in most of these countries no one has ever lived without it. i.e. they don't know any better.
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Not to mention that most of those countries piggy back off of the medical advancements made in countries like the US where Socialized medicine does not exist.
 
#228
#228
I'll try one more time.

utgibbs said:
I think I understand the disconnect. Actually Lexvol brought it up, and he has been noble in his posting.

Greed in people has not changed, but it has been regarded as a virtue for the last 40 years. The article has the very phrase in the title because it is received wisdom of the last 40 years. The article actually starts from the perspective that everyone already knows this.

The article is an OPINION PIECE and the title is an ideal held by the article author. This is not "received wisdom"


The quote volinbham has reposted is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Greed HAS NOT changed, but how we regard greed HAS. And this is exactly why we have more avenues to express it. This is EXACTLY what it means to change greed from a vice to a virtue. Greed does not change, but the ways in which we can act upon it have in very big ways.

Not at all what Greeny is saying - he is saying the changes to the system have made it easier to exercise greed. Greeny implies through out all his writing that he is against greed. What has changed is his view of how to manage greed. His morphed from a the free-market serves as a self-correcting greed mechanism to a view that calls for more regulation to make up for places where the free market fails to sufficiently hold back greed.

Greenspan was NOT an advocate for greed being a virtue. That is an invention of you and the author of the piece.

This is exactly why it was so important to stress Greed as a virtue rather than greed itself.
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You still have provided no support for your claim that greed is viewed as a virtue by Greenspan or the dominant culture or all those in the corridors of power. In fact, the Greenspan piece counters your claim but obviously you don't see it that way.

Some illustrative quotes from the article

But back then neither Mr. Greenspan nor Rand seemed to have envisioned the unethical behavior of some of today's captains of industry
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Greenspan was naive to the extent greed could be exercised - that is distinctly different than him viewing it as a virture.

It is a built-in safeguard of a free enterprise system and the only real protection of consumers against business dishonesty.
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free markets protect against the effects of greed (per Greeny). hardly him treating greed as a virtue.

Thus, it is argued, the Pure Food and Drug Administration, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the numerous building regulatory agencies are indispensable if the consumer is to be protected from the ''greed'' of the businessman.

But it is precisely the ''greed'' of the businessman or, more appropriately, his profit-seeking, which is the unexcelled protector of the consumer. . . .
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how Greeny distinguishes real greed from profit seeking. He's saying that whereas free market critics see profit seeking as greed, he does not.
 
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#229
#229
Ed12111 said:
On this issue? I think I've made it pretty clear where I stand. I think it's repugnant that a nation with a GDP of over 14 trillion dollars has millions of people who go without health-care.
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I don't think anyone is saying not to help those few million people get coverage (although it could be argued that they still have access if they legitimately can't afford it).

Do you believe the US gov't has the right to force every citizen to have coverage?
 
#231
#231
BearCat204 said:
On this issue? I think I've made it pretty clear where I stand. I think it's repugnant that a nation with a GDP of over 14 trillion dollars has millions of people who go without health-care. If this were a couple hundred years ago, I'd probably be making the same argument for education.
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I would be willing to bet that out of those "millions", more than a substantial percent have cell phone, cable, and other luxuries. But hey its a great idea to get free health care as long as someone else is paying for it.[/QUOTE]

So, when claiming that our system is better fails. Claiming that other countries don't like their health-care fails. Claiming that almost every other country is stupid and don't know any better fails. We'll just demonize the people who don't have health-care.
 
#233
#233
Ed12111 said:
I would be willing to bet that out of those "millions", more than a substantial percent have cell phone, cable, and other luxuries. But hey its a great idea to get free health care as long as someone else is paying for it.
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So, when claiming that our system is better fails. Claiming that other countries don't like their health-care fails. Claiming that almost every other country is stupid and don't know any better fails. We'll just demonize the people who don't have health-care.[/QUOTE]

When did claiming that our private heathcare system is better fail?
 
#234
#234
Serious question Ed, have you been outside the US? Not an attempt to discredit you, just curious.
 
#235
#235
lumberjack4 said:
Not to mention that most of those countries piggy back off of the medical advancements made in countries like the US where Socialized medicine does not exist.
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This is perhaps the most infuriating nugget of misinformation I've ever heard. Yes it's true most medical patent are from the U.S. No ****, we're the world's largest economy. Most all technological innovation occurs here. We have a very large and wealthy population. That it is in any way dependent of how we run our health-care is absurd.
 
#238
#238
BearCat204 said:
So, when claiming that our system is better fails. Claiming that other countries don't like their health-care fails. Claiming that almost every other country is stupid and don't know any better fails. We'll just demonize the people who don't have health-care.
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When did claiming that our private heathcare system is better fail?[/QUOTE]

Using any of the obvious indicators. Infant mortality, life span.... Of course, someone could make a case, but I've yet to see it.
 
#242
#242
Ed12111 said:
This is perhaps the most infuriating nugget of misinformation I've ever heard. Yes it's true most medical patent are from the U.S. No ****, we're the world's largest economy. Most all technological innovation occurs here. We have a very large and wealthy population. That it is in any way dependent of how we run our health-care is absurd.
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Why don't you look at the medical patents by country since they went to single-payer medicine. Surprise! Socialized medicine only works when you make the rich (capitalist economies) pay for it.
 
#244
#244
BearCat204 said:
You have been to Canada and you still claim that those with public healthcare currently approve of it?
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Absolutely. Did you look up any of the public polls? They were pretty strongly in favor of it. There's a reason nations are moving in that direction, and not the other way.
 
#249
#249
volinbham said:
Using any of the obvious indicators. Infant mortality, life span.... Of course, someone could make a case, but I've yet to see it.
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How about cancer survival rates?

U.S. Cancer Care Is Number One | Publications | National Center for Policy Analysis | NCPA[/QUOTE]

You could probably cherry-pick a few, but let's be honest in most we are not. When we should be ahead in almost all of them due to our vast wealth. Not to mention, according to you guys using a vastly superior system.
 
#250
#250
Interesting study on mortality rates in US and HC system

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers


Abstract
Life expectancy in the United States fares poorly in international comparisons, primarily
because of high mortality rates above age 50. Its low ranking is often blamed on a poor
performance by the health care system rather than on behavioral or social factors. This paper
presents evidence on the relative performance of the US health care system using death
avoidance as the sole criterion. We find that, by standards of OECD countries, the US does well
in terms of screening for cancer, survival rates from cancer, survival rates after heart attacks and
strokes, and medication of individuals with high levels of blood pressure or cholesterol. We
consider in greater depth mortality from prostate cancer and breast cancer, diseases for which
effective methods of identification and treatment have been developed and where behavioral
factors do not play a dominant role. We show that the US has had significantly faster declines in
mortality from these two diseases than comparison countries. We conclude that the low longevity​
ranking of the United States is not likely to be a result of a poorly functioning health care system.
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