I have a question for some of the Political forum regulars....

#176
#176
droski said:
you really believe that christians couldn't find a source advocating killing and having found a source in the past? you realize following just christ's word and not using hte old testament is a new thing for christianity right?
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Wrong. But I'd love to see your sources. Many of the early church 'fathers' disconnected from anything Jewish in teaching. Many of the early churches were gentile as well and had no knowledge of anything Jewish. Also, having the Old Testament in canon and actually using it as how to actively practice are two different things as well. Very few early fathers actively taught from the Septuagint. Those who did never said any of the history of which you are trying to bait to such as warfare was a standard to live by.

Again, the foundations of Christianity cannot be compared to Islam. I know you are trying to dig out some later history as a form of 'proof'. But compare the actions and the teachings of the founders and tell me how they compare. Muhammed was a merchant and shepherd. He received revelations and then went to war. As he was receiving revelations his actions were to kill unbelievers including beheadings. He conquered all around him in short order. His reaction against persecution was to war and then kill all opposition. These are what became the teachings and tenets of Islam. I compare a carpenter from Galilee who walked around performing miracles and teaching parables. His actions were to preach love, kindness, and to serve each other. He taught that Christians would be persecuted and to turn the other cheek. His own death reflects this. His own arrest reflects it as well. Peter took up arms and struck a guard. Jesus' actions were far different.

And you're still not seeing the comparisons.
 
#178
#178
droski said:
the problem eric is you look at the violence and because you too are a religious wackjob who clearly can't handle that others have different views you equate the violence with the religion you don't like and understand. if christianity was the primary religion in the middle east we'd still be seeing hte same violence. it's a cultural, poverty, and education issue, not a religious one. just like the crusades and inquisition were the same. would you kill someone if your religious leader told you to? are you that much of a lemming? why do you think muslims are any different? it's not a coincidence that the most progressive and most highly educated muslim countries don't produce terorrists (or at least not at much higher rates than the US).
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This post has got to be the worst post I have read on the argument yet.

If Christianity was the primary religion over there, we wouldn't be seeing ANY violence, for the most part, except the same crimes we see committed over here because of greed, pride, and jealousy. The way you have tried to equate Christianity and Islam on the violence front, and others as well, is a joke. If you ACTUALLY understood the BIG fundamental differences and UNDERSTOOD the scripture differences in both, you wouldn't even been saying what you are. It truly shows what we as Christians are dealing with, educated fools who think Christians should be grouped in with every other religion out there, when the fundamentals are completely peaceful and pacifist.

BTW, just so we are clear on the whole Crusades thing, that was mostly the Roman Catholic Church, and that sect isn't even close to what represents Christianity today as a whole. It was just as corrupt and most governments are today. So, don't go trying to equate the two.

BTW, I am still waiting on someone to give me a RECENT example of Christians completely an act like what happened on 9-11 and all of our soldiers dying to help bring peace to a place where the ideology is to kill everyone that doesn't agree with your faith.

Let me ask you guys a personal question too. If you had the option to go to church with someone, who would you go with, and Christian or a Muslim?? I think I know the answer that most of you will give, I just want to see if you will actually step out and answer it truthfully.
 
#180
#180
utvolpj said:
doesn't it also teach that you will be condemned to roast in hell for all eternity if you don't accept Jesus?
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Yeah... but that's after you're already dead which the Christian had nothing to do with. :) However, to your point the Christian did attempt to inform you about everlasting life, which is much different than killing those who don't accept the teachings of the Quran.

droski said:
who are you to say what true christianity is and what true islam is?
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I'm a Christian, and I'm only saying what the New Testament says. If you disagree with what I've said you're free to provide counter information to support your opinion.
 
#181
#181
CSpindizzy said:
Wrong. But I'd love to see your sources. Many of the early church 'fathers' disconnected from anything Jewish in teaching. Many of the early churches were gentile as well and had no knowledge of anything Jewish. Also, having the Old Testament in canon and actually using it as how to actively practice are two different things as well. Very few early fathers actively taught from the Septuagint. Those who did never said any of the history of which you are trying to bait to such as warfare was a standard to live by.

Again, the foundations of Christianity cannot be compared to Islam. I know you are trying to dig out some later history as a form of 'proof'. But compare the actions and the teachings of the founders and tell me how they compare. Muhammed was a merchant and shepherd. He received revelations and then went to war. As he was receiving revelations his actions were to kill unbelievers including beheadings. He conquered all around him in short order. His reaction against persecution was to war and then kill all opposition. These are what became the teachings and tenets of Islam. I compare a carpenter from Galilee who walked around performing miracles and teaching parables. His actions were to preach love, kindness, and to serve each other. He taught that Christians would be persecuted and to turn the other cheek. His own death reflects this. His own arrest reflects it as well. Peter took up arms and struck a guard. Jesus' actions were far different.

And you're still not seeing the comparisons.
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so you are completely ignoring say 600 to 16000 ad? those christians sure as hell didn't ignore the old testament?
 
#182
#182
CSpindizzy said:
Read the teachings. Read and compare the words of Muhammed and the words of Jesus.
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I have. it's complete and utter garbage to imply the teachings of muhammed are violence. the old testament is far more violent. just like some christians in the past focused ont he violence in the old testament, some muslims today focus on the violence in the koran. it's exactly the same. just becuase YOUR version of christianity disagrees that doesn't ignore hte historical reality.
 
#183
#183
utvolpj said:
doesn't it also teach that you will be condemned to roast in hell for all eternity if you don't accept Jesus?
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Sure does, which is why you better learn to make your thoughts and your actions accountable. Do you even know what Jesus told his disciples, what is the one commandment is that would lead you away from doing bad things and make you the most happy as a Christian??
 
#184
#184
droski said:
so you are completely ignoring say 600 to 16000 ad? those christians sure as hell didn't ignore the old testament?
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I'm not ignoring anything. We are talking about the teachings themselves. Are you ignoring that? As far as 600 AD I see complete militant Islam coming from the founder himself. Are you ignoring that? Again, compare the founders. I am not arguing over misguided actions. I am arguing tenets of the faith. Somehow you are equating the actual teachings with every single thing that happened 'in the name of' that faith.

Tell me which Christians used what Old Testament text to justify their actions and I will show you where it has nothing to do with the actual tenets of their faith. Add to the fact that Islam was invading Europe and I will say that "radical Christianity" of the Crusades became a response to "true Islam".
 
#185
#185
droski said:
I have. it's complete and utter garbage to imply the teachings of muhammed are violence. the old testament is far more violent. just like some christians in the past focused ont he violence in the old testament, some muslims today focus on the violence in the koran. it's exactly the same. just becuase YOUR version of christianity disagrees that doesn't ignore hte historical reality.
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Droski, you aren't even close to right on half of what you said in this response. You do know that the Old Testament deals with the Jews and the Law, and the New Testament deals with Christians and Fulfillment of the Law, right?? Also, the Old Testament is a history guide, showing us how falling away from God, without a savior like Jesus Christ, can be like. Also, all that violence is mostly God's wrath, just so you know.
 
#186
#186
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Sure does, which is why you better learn to make your thoughts and your actions accountable. Do you even know what Jesus told his disciples, what is the one commandment is that would lead you away from doing bad things and make you the most happy as a Christian??
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you really can't see the irony of calling islam violent when your belief is that any non believers will live eternity in hell?
 
#187
#187
CSpindizzy said:
I'm not ignoring anything. We are talking about the teachings themselves. Are you ignoring that? As far as 600 AD I see complete militant Islam coming from the founder himself. Are you ignoring that? Again, compare the founders. I am not arguing over misguided actions. I am arguing tenets of the faith. Somehow you are equating the actual teachings with every single thing that happened 'in the name of' that faith.

Tell me which Christians used what Old Testament text to justify their actions and I will show you where it has nothing to do with the actual tenets of their faith. Add to the fact that Islam was invading Europe and I will say that "radical Christianity" of the Crusades became a response to "true Islam".
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And yet today, those same countries are told to keep their mouth shut in favor of tolerance. Sad, sad, sad times.
 
#188
#188
CSpindizzy said:
I'm not ignoring anything. We are talking about the teachings themselves. Are you ignoring that? As far as 600 AD I see complete militant Islam coming from the founder himself. Are you ignoring that? Again, compare the founders. I am not arguing over misguided actions. I am arguing tenets of the faith. Somehow you are equating the actual teachings with every single thing that happened 'in the name of' that faith.

Tell me which Christians used what Old Testament text to justify their actions and I will show you where it has nothing to do with the actual tenets of their faith. Add to the fact that Islam was invading Europe and I will say that "radical Christianity" of the Crusades became a response to "true Islam".
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once again. that's your INTERPRETATION of the tenets of the faith. there is no right interpretation. that is just arrogance.
 
#189
#189
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Sure does, which is why you better learn to make your thoughts and your actions accountable. Do you even know what Jesus told his disciples, what is the one commandment is that would lead you away from doing bad things and make you the most happy as a Christian??
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oh so it's ok to condemn someone to eternal fire as long as it's not on Earth? Gotcha
 
#190
#190
droski said:
I have. it's complete and utter garbage to imply the teachings of muhammed are violence. the old testament is far more violent. just like some christians in the past focused ont he violence in the old testament, some muslims today focus on the violence in the koran. it's exactly the same. just becuase YOUR version of christianity disagrees that doesn't ignore hte historical reality.
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This statement alone proves you have not read and comprehended the Quran. There is no argument on some modern day selective reading here droski. A human with no knowledge of history simply has to look at Muhammed's words and his actions to see this. I'm sorry you cannot clearly see historical fact of what Muhammed carried out his own teachings. I'm sorry your only defense is some few hundred years later action of people beyond the actual teachings of Christianity.

If you cannot see that Muhammed lived up to his own teachings while alive by waging war, killing, and beheading, you are in denial of fact. MY version of Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ and those of his followers which make up the New Testament. It does not mean I 'ignore' the Old Testament. It means I will not take select and rare commands that God gave the Jews in taking their promised land to justify violence. God never stated these same commands would apply to anything beyond the period he gave them. Muhammed gave his to not only follow them himself but so that all followers until the end would carry them out.
 
#191
#191
droski said:
you really can't see the irony of calling islam violent when your belief is that any non believers will live eternity in hell?
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That's by their personal choice though, not by me beating them in the head with a brick telling them that if they don't covert they will die. That's all personal choice, and if people don't want the saving grace of God, that's up to them. Seems like this world needs more of it. It would take care of a lot of the world's problems, IMO.
 
#193
#193
droski said:
once again. that's your INTERPRETATION of the tenets of the faith. there is no right interpretation. that is just arrogance.
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Show me in the tenets where I am wrong. No right interpretation? It kinda defeats the point of a tenet of faith...."hey guys this is my command to follow but just pick and choose and do whatever among this you feel is necessary"
 
#194
#194
utvolpj said:
oh so it's ok to condemn someone to eternal fire as long as it's not on Earth? Gotcha
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Hey bub, I'm not condemning anyone here. That's not my job, so I don't do it. I will make righteous decisions about people though, if I feel that their path can cause me to lose mine in the process. That doesn't mean I don't pray for them and hope they can walk a narrow path with me. Sometimes, it takes years for people to get on that path, but NO ONE, let me repeat, NO ONE, forces them to do so. Everyone will be judged, it's just where you end up that matters. I struggle with secular things everyday, but I am still young and things like that effect me more.
 
#195
#195
CSpindizzy said:
This statement alone proves you have not read and comprehended the Quran. There is no argument on some modern day selective reading here droski. A human with no knowledge of history simply has to look at Muhammed's words and his actions to see this. I'm sorry you cannot clearly see historical fact of what Muhammed carried out his own teachings. I'm sorry your only defense is some few hundred years later action of people beyond the actual teachings of Christianity.

If you cannot see that Muhammed lived up to his own teachings while alive by waging war, killing, and beheading, you are in denial of fact. MY version of Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ and those of his followers which make up the New Testament. It does not mean I 'ignore' the Old Testament. It means I will not take select and rare commands that God gave the Jews in taking their promised land to justify violence. God never stated these same commands would apply to anything beyond the period he gave them. Muhammed gave his to not only follow them himself but so that all followers until the end would carry them out.
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mohammaded believed christians and jews to be people of hte book and to be respected. he did not damn them to hell like some christains do to non believers. radical islam clearly didn't take those words to heart. i've studied islam in detail. was david really that less violent than mohammed? why aren't the jews all killing people?

woudl you argue that the tenants of judiasm are violence?
 
#197
#197
g8terh8ter_eric said:
That's by their personal choice though, not by me beating them in the head with a brick telling them that if they don't covert they will die. That's all personal choice, and if people don't want the saving grace of God, that's up to them. Seems like this world needs more of it. It would take care of a lot of the world's problems, IMO.
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i see. so as long as you aren't the one swinging the sword it's ok. damning people to hell is not a problem.
 
#198
#198
droski said:
mohammaded believed christians and jews to be people of hte book and to be respected. he did not damn them to hell like some christains do to non believers. radical islam clearly didn't take those words to heart. i've studied islam in detail. was david really that less violent than mohammed? why aren't the jews all killing people?

woudl you argue that the tenants of judiasm are violence?
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:huh:
 
#199
#199
CSpindizzy said:
Show me in the tenets where I am wrong. No right interpretation? It kinda defeats the point of a tenet of faith...."hey guys this is my command to follow but just pick and choose and do whatever among this you feel is necessary"
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every religion picks and choses what to follow and what writings are more important than other writings. are you really telling me you follow ALL of jesus teachings?
 
#200
#200
droski said:
mohammaded believed christians and jews to be people of hte book and to be respected. he did not damn them to hell like some christains do to non believers. radical islam clearly didn't take those words to heart. i've studied islam in detail. was david really that less violent than mohammed? why aren't the jews all killing people?

woudl you argue that the tenants of judiasm are violence?
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What Christians damn non-believers to hell instead of trying to save them from hell?
 
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