Does anybody actually support ObamaCare?

#1
T

TNvol86

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#1
I know all the far lefties and Democratic partisans blindly "support" any industry takeover, but I am interested if there is any rational person that can explain to me why they would support such a terrible bill. In my opinion, I see it as indefensible, but I am curious why someone might support it.

Having dealt with the government before, I personally do not understand how someone could honestly believe the government is better at running our lives than we are, but I would like to hear the argument....

Anyone?
 
#2
#2
TNvol86 said:
I know all the far lefties and Democratic partisans blindly "support" any industry takeover, but I am interested if there is any rational person that can explain to me why they would support such a terrible bill. In my opinion, I see it as indefensible, but I am curious why someone might support it.

Having dealt with the government before, I personally do not understand how someone could honestly believe the government is better at running our lives than we are, but I would like to hear the argument....

Anyone?
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I support the bill and am actually grateful to have this opportunity. First let my classify myself politically because it is so relevant. I am very Liberal in all things not related to gun rights and state rights.

The bill sets up exchanges, that regulate the insurance industry. If ever there was an industry that needs to be regulated it is the insurance industry. All the control you seem to feel we are giving to the government on health care, is not being given to the government. The existing insurance system will stay in tact, just be regulated (such a good thing).

All the arguments about the government controlling what doctor you can go to, what treatments will be paid for, and how the government will control peoples lives is wrong. Insurance companies do this now and have been for a long time, but since there is no public option the government will have absolutely no hand in this.

So many abuses by the insurance companies have ruined peoples lives, that is why the insurance companies need to be regulated. I have so much more to say, but this got long, so I will wait for a few more posters, respond to them, and finish what I like about the bill later.

Thank you for starting this thread, I hope to debate many of you and look forward to it.
 
#3
#3
Alright one more thing. Lefties do not support this bill, they are livid that they did not get more out of it. Seriously, Howard Dean is criticizing this bill. Dyed in the wool liberals are very unhappy about it.
 
#5
#5
Can I ask which assumptions you are working off of? I'll explain.

For example, if you assume free markets are "perfect" (which is the usual starting point for libertarians/republicans), then free-market insurance markets result in market failure.

If you assume free markets are "not perfect" (usually through human error, the usual starting point for democrats/liberals) then the free-market insurance markets result in market failure.


In other words, I'm unaware of an economic ideology which can logically show that unregulated, free-market insurance markets are efficient. If you know of one, I'd absolutely love to see it.





Otherwise, I still ask "why not"?
 
#6
#6
shootermcgavin7 said:
Can I ask which assumptions you are working off of? I'll explain.

For example, if you assume free markets are "perfect" (which is the usual starting point for libertarians/republicans), then free-market insurance markets result in market failure.

If you assume free markets are "not perfect" (usually through human error, the usual starting point for democrats/liberals) then the free-market insurance markets result in market failure.


In other words, I'm unaware of an economic ideology which can logically show that unregulated, free-market insurance markets are efficient. If you know of one, I'd absolutely love to see it.





Otherwise, I still ask "why not"?
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What on earth was this supposed to mean?

The free market with absurd and overbearing gov't regulation seems to work just fine for life insurance, P&C insurance and all other forms of insurance that I can think of. Just because you read something on some ridiculous blog somewhere doesn't mean it bears repeating.
 
#7
#7
jackaro said:
I support the bill and am actually grateful to have this opportunity. First let my classify myself politically because it is so relevant. I am very Liberal in all things not related to gun rights and state rights.

The bill sets up exchanges, that regulate the insurance industry. If ever there was an industry that needs to be regulated it is the insurance industry. All the control you seem to feel we are giving to the government on health care, is not being given to the government. The existing insurance system will stay in tact, just be regulated (such a good thing).

All the arguments about the government controlling what doctor you can go to, what treatments will be paid for, and how the government will control peoples lives is wrong. Insurance companies do this now and have been for a long time, but since there is no public option the government will have absolutely no hand in this.

So many abuses by the insurance companies have ruined peoples lives, that is why the insurance companies need to be regulated. I have so much more to say, but this got long, so I will wait for a few more posters, respond to them, and finish what I like about the bill later.

Thank you for starting this thread, I hope to debate many of you and look forward to it.
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The version of the senate bill charges younger people more in order to subsidize older peoples healthcare. Why should I have to pay more so someone else can pay less?

The govt would have to ration care, they would have no other choice. When healthcare is dirt cheap or free for some there will be too many rushing to the doctor for every sneeze and cough. See. Canada and every other country that has socialized medicine.

What has the govt ever ran that has come back on budget? I can ensure this will cost way more than what they are saying right not, anyone to deny that is just naive. You trust the govt to run healthcare, I want the govt in my life as little as possible.

The current healthcare situation could be improved, but I prefer the free market to make these changes.
 
#8
#8
BigPapaVol said:
What on earth was this supposed to mean?

The free market with absurd and overbearing gov't regulation seems to work just fine for life insurance, P&C insurance and all other forms of insurance that I can think of.
Click to expand...

Life insurance and P&C insurance have varying screening and/or comprehensive requirements that don't create the same problem as health insurance.

Just because you read something on some ridiculous blog somewhere doesn't mean it bears repeating.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure which blog you could find my statement on. I'm simply explaining that under the assumption of perfect markets, traditional health insurance markets lead to market failure.

The intuition is pretty simple, but you won't find it on a "blog" that I know of. If you know of one, kindly provide a link.
 
#9
#9
shootermcgavin7 said:
Life insurance and P&C insurance have varying screening and/or comprehensive requirements that don't create the same problem as health insurance.



I'm not sure which blog you could find my statement on. I'm simply explaining that under the assumption of perfect markets, traditional health insurance markets lead to market failure.

The intuition is pretty simple, but you won't find it on a "blog" that I know of. If you know of one, kindly provide a link.
Click to expand...

It's patently absurd to say free markets can't find a solution for healthcare or insurance. The problem is that the insurers today have an antitrust exemption, Medicare whacks the entire market, and the consumer has been almost completely decoupled from the provider. Insert some legit competitio and you'll watch consumers start to make different decisions and drive this market a different direction.

Te one thing wr know for sure is that Medicare is the most costly option by a huge margin. Further federalization will do nothing but drive costs higher and quality south.
 
#10
#10
Maybe this will help you.....



Early this morning, the Senate made history and health reform cleared its most important hurdle yet -- garnering the 60 votes needed to move toward a final vote in that chamber later this week.

This marks the first time in our nation's history that comprehensive health reform has come to this point. And it appears that the American people will soon realize the genuine reform that offers security to those who have health insurance and affordable options to those who do not.

I'm grateful to Senator Harry Reid and every senator who's been working around the clock to make this happen. And I'm grateful to you, and every member of the Organizing for America community, for all the work you have done to make this progress possible.

After a nearly century-long struggle, we are now on the cusp of making health insurance reform a reality in the United States of America.

As with any legislation, compromise is part of the process. But I'm pleased that recently added provisions have made this landmark bill even stronger. Between the time when the bill passes and the time when the insurance exchanges get up and running, insurance companies that try to jack up their rates do so at their own peril. Those who hike their prices may be barred from selling plans on the exchanges.

And while insurance companies will be prevented from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing conditions once the exchanges are open, in the meantime there will be a high-risk pool where people with pre-existing conditions can purchase affordable coverage.

A recent amendment has made these protections even stronger. Insurance companies will now be prohibited from denying coverage to children immediately after this bill passes. There's also explicit language in this bill that will protect a patient's choice of doctor. And small businesses will get additional assistance as well.

These protections are in addition to the ones we've been talking about for some time. No longer will insurance companies be able to drop your coverage if you become sick and no longer will you have to pay unlimited amounts out of your own pocket for treatments that you need.

Under this bill families will save on their premiums; businesses that would see their costs rise if we don't act will save money now and in the future. This bill will strengthen Medicare and extend the life of the program. Because it's paid for and gets rid of waste and inefficiency in our health care system, this will be the largest deficit reduction plan in over a decade.

Finally, this reform will extend coverage to more than 30 million Americans who don't have it.

These are not small changes. These are big changes. They're fundamental reforms. They will save money. They will save lives.

And your passion, your work, your organizing helped make all of this possible. Now it's time to finish the job.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama
 
#11
#11
Our president is an uberleft idealistic clown. This bill is miles from coming to his desk and most of his major vote stealing crap will get canned. This thing is now a referendum on the insurance providers.
 
#14
#14
yeah that will happen

and when you use the presidents numbers we have already insured 15 million in the past year without this bill. At this pace he'd win re-election in a landslide. Either that or he's giving up on 15 million
 
#15
#15
I can understand jacaro's comments, and I don't necessarily share the view that the free market is infallible all the time....

...that being said though, a health insurance market free of medicare and medicaid would be the ideal situation to conserve quality and cost. I don't see how anybody can look at what it being done now and conclude this bill won't be a cost monstrosity.

The difference between health insurance and other insurance industries is if somebody shows up at the ER they will not be denied care and that cost has got to go somewhere. That is where the problem lies. The system the way it stands now is broken, and something needs to be done, I just don't know the best way without either the government getting involved somehow or refusing people at the hospital door.
 
#16
#16
I don't understand all the different factors involved as well as some posters here but have a basic understanding of the problems we face with health insurance and health care. As I see it we have many problems that should be addressed before we commit to any reform, or at the very least need to be part of any reform put in place. Sadly too many of them are being ignored because of the political ramifications.

I simply do not trust the government to run programs like these in the most cost effective manner, they have proven time and again they are incapable of getting good value for the taxpayers money, why would I want to trust them with even more?
 
#17
#17
another question I have is whether Obama views these "carve-outs" as pork (since it's basically money used to buy votes)? Didn't he say he wouldn't sign a bill containing any?
 
#18
#18
utvolpj said:
another question I have is whether Obama views these "carve-outs" as pork (since it's basically money used to buy votes)? Didn't he say he wouldn't sign a bill containing any?
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He did say that, but he also said that all healthcare negotiations would be seen on C-SPAN, I have yet to see these televised.
 
#21
#21
utvolpj said:
another question I have is whether Obama views these "carve-outs" as pork (since it's basically money used to buy votes)? Didn't he say he wouldn't sign a bill containing any?
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Yes, his track record has already proven that pledge meant squat. I'm sorry pj, but I feel I must inform you that "change" he promised in Washington politics isn't going to come to fruition, I guess he changed his mind and likes the games of politics played just the way they have been for some time.
 
#23
#23
KB5252 said:
Yes, his track record has already proven that pledge meant squat. I'm sorry pj, but I feel I must inform you that "change" he promised in Washington politics isn't going to come to fruition, I guess he changed his mind and likes the games of politics played just the way they have been for some time.
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I would agrue that it is coming to fruition.
 
#24
#24
Garbage is what I think about it but im just wondering, what is going to be the next "Hope and Change" item this guy thinks of next?
 
#25
#25
Daddy Gee said:
how many people actually wrote this bill? was there any input from the R's?
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4: Emanuel, Obama, Pelosi, Reid.
There was 0 input from the R, they tried getting into these meeting and adding input but they were ignored or denied every time.
 
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