Israel vs Palestinians II

#4,601
#4,601
KB5252 said:
To your first point, Israel is responsible for Gaza, Gaza elected Hamas as its leadership. Supporting Hamas is supporting Gaza's elected leadership. Is this abnormal or am I missing something?
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Yes you are. It's possible to support the people of Gaza without supporting hamas. When did hamas win the election, what was their share of the votes, and what did they do to the opposition after the election? Considering the answers, hamas' legitimacy as the government there fades considerably.
KB5252 said:
Every time Israel has been attacked military they take land from those who've attacked them. You'd think smarter, cooler mind would prevail and stop attacking them, it never seems to end wwell.
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They also take land when they're not attacked. So...
 
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#4,603
#4,603
EasternVol said:
Yes you are. It's possible to support the people of Gaza without supporting hamas. When did hamas win the election, what was their share of the votes, and what did they do to the opposition after the election? Considering the answers, hamas' legitimacy as the government there fades considerably.

They also take land when they're not attacked. So...
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There has been actual support for Hamas and even Hezbollah by some. Many support Hamas to spite Israel. There are morons on both sides of the equation.

Hamas got enough of the votes to win, and they killed political opponents as they have in clan warfare going back before the state of Israel was created.

If not Hamas who is the legitimate government?
 
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#4,604
#4,604
🚨 Brave Israeli forces have encircled the final Hamas terrorists tunnel network beneath Rafah, where roughly 200 cowardly, satanic terrorists remain trapped underground — in the same tunnels they once used to imprison innocent Israeli hostages for more than two years.

The terrorists have rejected every call to surrender as Israel maintains control above ground. A U.S.-backed proposal to deport them in exchange for disarmament collapsed after no country agreed to take them, leaving the terrorists sealed in the very terror maze they built.

Prime Minister Netanyahu has ruled out any “safe passage” or negotiated deal, calling the standoff a fitting end for those who weaponized Gaza’s tunnels to murder and abduct innocent civilians.
 
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#4,605
#4,605
KB5252 said:
There has been actual support for Hamas and even Hezbollah by some. Many support Hamas to spite Israel. There are morons on both sides of the equation.

Hamas got enough of the votes to win, and they killed political opponents as they have in clan warfare going back before the state of Israel was created.

If not Hamas who is the legitimate government?
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It doesn't have one considering all the manipulation by foreign actors. Which doesn't matter to the point that there are more than two choices to support.
 
#4,607
#4,607
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#4,608
#4,608
EasternVol said:
It doesn't have one considering all the manipulation by foreign actors. Which doesn't matter to the point that there are more than two choices to support.
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What matters is what they support(ed), and the fact is Hamas remains popular and powerful in Gaza. At least popular enough to remain in power
 
#4,609
#4,609
KB5252 said:
What matters is what they support(ed), and the fact is Hamas remains popular and powerful in Gaza. At least popular enough to remain in power
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It certainly doesn't matter to the point that was under discussion. The only group that's armed is quite often 'popular' enough to hold power.
 
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#4,611
#4,611
Vol8188 said:
Or what adults would call nuance. The reality of Hamas isn’t black and white and you can find numerous articles pre October 7th about people wanting to delist Hamas as a terrorist organization because they had been relatively quiet on that front.

So yes, aiding the the Palestinian government pre-October 7th is far less absurd than continuing to believe propaganda from that same regime today
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How many rockets were fired from Gaza to Israel in 22’ and 21’?
 
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#4,613
#4,613
EasternVol said:
It certainly doesn't matter to the point that was under discussion. The only group that's armed is quite often popular enough to hold power.
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For a minute, I thought I wandered into the 2A Appreciation Thread.

This post should be “stickied” at the top of that one.
 
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#4,614
#4,614
Did everyone catch that.
They care about the innocent loss of life but 10/07 was justified and self defense against an aggressor.

We all know Jews can’t be innocent so 10/07 was ok.
 
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#4,616
#4,616
EasternVol said:
Yeah that's a sticky question. There's not a real long list of overthrown dictatorships, especially without outside interference. And more especially if there's an ongoing conflict with an aggressor.
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It can be argued that the ongoing conflict is largely due to the outside influences. I agree it's a near impossible question to answer. And I'm not minimizing Israel's part in the current and long-standing conflict but without that outside interference I would think life for many Palestinians in Israel would be better.

I used to think a two state solution was workable. But the current conflict has resigned me to the fact that as long as there are outside influences, like Iran, Qatar and other wealthy Arab families in the Gulf willing and able to fund jihad then it's likely futile.

I think the only real way is to make them to live among each other and hold them accountable for their actions against each other until the differences bleed away. Not sure if that's entirely possible either though.
 
#4,617
#4,617
MAD said:
🚨 Brave Israeli forces have encircled the final Hamas terrorists tunnel network beneath Rafah, where roughly 200 cowardly, satanic terrorists remain trapped underground — in the same tunnels they once used to imprison innocent Israeli hostages for more than two years.

The terrorists have rejected every call to surrender as Israel maintains control above ground. A U.S.-backed proposal to deport them in exchange for disarmament collapsed after no country agreed to take them, leaving the terrorists sealed in the very terror maze they built.

Prime Minister Netanyahu has ruled out any “safe passage” or negotiated deal, calling the standoff a fitting end for those who weaponized Gaza’s tunnels to murder and abduct innocent civilians.
Click to expand...

Collapse the tunnels and save money on the graves.
 
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#4,619
#4,619
KB5252 said:
It can be argued that the ongoing conflict is largely due to the outside influences. I agree it's a near impossible question to answer. And I'm not minimizing Israel's part in the current and long-standing conflict but without that outside interference I would think life for many Palestinians in Israel would be better.
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The big troubles are not in Israel proper, they're in territory that Israel illegally occupies and runs as an apartheid system. And from the Palestinians evicted by Israel in the 1940's and their descendants.
KB5252 said:
I used to think a two state solution was workable. But the current conflict has resigned me to the fact that as long as there are outside influences, like Iran, Qatar and other wealthy Arab families in the Gulf willing and able to fund jihad then it's likely futile.
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It's a war over land, not a religious war, so I don't see how jihad's applicable. Don't forget the Christians there.
KB5252 said:
I think the only real way is to make them to live among each other and hold them accountable for their actions against each other until the differences bleed away. Not sure if that's entirely possible either though.
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Maybe, but as you note, it would be a tough sell.
 
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#4,620
#4,620
Smokey123 said:
How many rockets were fired from Gaza to Israel in 22’ and 21’?
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Nearly every rocket fired in 2022 prior to October 7th was by PIJ. Not Hamas.

Every time we go down this road, you dishonestly attempt to claim I’m defending Hamas. Not even slightly. But I am telling that numerous people thought there was an actual tide shift (or were making that claim possibly because they support Hamas in general).

I think that’s a reality that’s important to accept and acknowledge.
 
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#4,621
#4,621
Vol8188 said:
Nearly every rocket fired in 2022 prior to October 7th was by PIJ. Not Hamas.

Every time we go down this road, you dishonestly attempt to claim I’m defending Hamas. Not even slightly. But I am telling that numerous people thought there was an actual tide shift (or were making that claim possibly because they support Hamas in general).

I think that’s a reality that’s important to accept and acknowledge.
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Firstly that’s not true. Secondly the PIJ and Hamas essentially joined forces in 2017 ane worked together in Gaza. PIJ was part of the Oct 7th attacks.

Who gives a crap about some bs op-Ed’s
 
#4,622
#4,622
Smokey123 said:
Firstly that’s not true. Secondly the PIJ and Hamas essentially joined forces in 2017 ane worked together in Gaza. PIJ was part of the Oct 7th attacks.

Who gives a crap about some bs op-Ed’s
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Go ahead. Provide your information on rockets from Hamas since you first asked the loaded question and now proclaim my answer is wrong.

The op-Eds obviously matter. Dismissing public opinion on the matter, is an absurd take. It’s not the only factor, but it obviously matters.
 
#4,625
#4,625
Vol8188 said:
Go ahead. Provide your information on rockets from Hamas since you first asked the loaded question and now proclaim my answer is wrong.

The op-Eds obviously matter. Dismissing public opinion on the matter, is an absurd take. It’s not the only factor, but it obviously matters.
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It wasn’t a loaded question, you also never answered. You also didn’t seem to know the fact PIJ and Hamas worked together.

Oh public opinions matter on this conflict now? Guess Israel is the bad guy now according to you
 
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