Israel vs Palestinians II

#4,301
#4,301
EasternVol said:
What's the text that condones beating women and children, and killing non-believers (in context)?
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4:34, which, in a literal translation and traditional interpretation, outlines a three-step process for a husband to address a wife's severe misconduct or rebellion (nushuz): first, admonishing her; second, forsaking her in the marital bed; and third, as a final resort, "beating" or "striking" her.


Surah 9:29, which states, "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection".

If you need further evidence read Surah 47-7

This reads like the worst of the old statement fire and brimstone of not worse.

I remember some of these verses as a young man looking for clarity, as I read these I found I could never associate or even identify with Islam.
 
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#4,303
#4,303
KB5252 said:
4:34, which, in a literal translation and traditional interpretation, outlines a three-step process for a husband to address a wife's severe misconduct or rebellion (nushuz): first, admonishing her; second, forsaking her in the marital bed; and third, as a final resort, "beating" or "striking" her.


Surah 9:29, which states, "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection".

If you need further evidence read Surah 47-7

This reads like the worst of the old statement fire and brimstone of not worse.

I remember some of these versus as a young man looking for clarity, as I read these I found I could never associate or even identify with Islam.
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So it's like the Bible (some say the Bible's worse) but the Bible's compatible with Western values? The request included 'in context'. What the context of 9-29?
Didn't you leave out an important adverb from 4-34? And again there's the matter of context. How does that verse compare with the Bible or scripture of other religions which are compatible with Western values?
 
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#4,304
#4,304
EasternVol said:
So it's like the Bible (some say the Bible's worse) but the Bible's compatible with Western values? The request included 'in context'. What the context of 9-29?
Didn't you leave out an important adverb from 4-34? And again there's the matter of vontext. How does that verse compare with the Bible or scripture of other religions which are compatible with Western values?
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The irony is that The New Testament is not compatible with the Old Testament.

And the New Testament is not compatible with a lot of western Christianity. There are only two great commandments, and MAGA is firmly opposed to one of them.
 
#4,305
#4,305
n_huffhines said:
The irony is that The New Testament is not compatible with the Old Testament.

And the New Testament is not compatible with a lot of western Christianity. There are only two great commandments, and MAGA is firmly opposed to one of them.
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What are the only 2 great commandments?
 
#4,306
#4,306
KB5252 said:
According to the Hadith:

a recorded saying, action, or approval of the Prophet Muhammad, serving as the second most important source of Islamic law and guidance after the Qur'an. Muslims use hadith to understand and implement the teachings of the Qur'an in their daily lives and traditions. The authenticity of each hadith is judged by its chain of narrators (sanad) and the text itself (matn), with different categories like Sahih (authentic) and Da'if (weak).

The Quran does not state Aisha's age, but traditional Islamic sources, primarily through hadith, say she was six at the time of her marriage and nine when the marriage was consummated. These reports are considered a secondary source of scripture and are not found in the Quran itself. Modern scholars hold differing views on her age, with some questioning the reliability of the traditional reports.

But if you question the Hadith you are blasphemous.

You must either except the Koran and Hadith or reject it, rejecting it is considered Haram in Islam
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Wasn't the issue whether they were married when she was a kid or not? And the mentioned analyses say they weren't, so he wouldn't be considered a pedophile today.
My understanding is that acceptance of the Koran is mandatory but Hadiths can be questioned. Maybe that depends on school of thought.
 
#4,307
#4,307
EasternVol said:
So it's like the Bible (some say the Bible's worse) but the Bible's compatible with Western values? The request included 'in context'. What the context of 9-29?
Didn't you leave out an important adverb from 4-34? And again there's the matter of vontext. How does that verse compare with the Bible or scripture of other religions which are compatible with Western values?
Click to expand...
If you're speaking strictly Old Testament, then yes, I would have problems with portions of it......... But remember Islam believes parts of and follows as well, but the New testament and the examples Jesus and his disciples set are absolutely compatible.

The context of 9-29 is fairly clear, there was a group(s) of people they made war (fought) with because they had not submitted to Islam to their satisfaction.

If you believe there is something left out of the transition I cited please put out there. If I don't know what's missing I can't put it together for you. You'll have to do that.
 
#4,308
#4,308
EasternVol said:
Wasn't the issue whether they were married when she was a kid or not? And the mentioned analyses say they weren't, so he wouldn't be considered a pedophile today.
My understanding is that acceptance of the Koran is mandatory but Hadiths can be questioned. Maybe that depends on school of thought.
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Married and consummated marriage yes. There are multiple Sunnah references to her being of six and 9. One even attributed to her says at the time she plays with dolls.

You can question Sunnah in Islam if are seeking understanding or clarity, not to reject or mock it

So by that standard if you are asking questions trying disprove what is written, her age in this instance, it could be considered Haram.
 
#4,311
#4,311
KB5252 said:
If you're speaking strictly Old Testament, then yes, I would have problems with portions of it......... But remember Islam believes parts of and follows as well, but the New testament and the examples Jesus and his disciples set are absolutely compatible.
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Didn't Jesus say that he didn't come to change the law? There are a lot of people who call themselves Christians that have mindsets incompatible with Western values. Many of them post here. There are a lot of people who call themselves Muslims like that too. Then there's the majority of both religions who are well in line with what we think of as Western values.
KB5252 said:
The context of 9-29 is fairly clear, there was a group(s) of people they made war (fought) with because they had not submitted to Islam to their satisfaction.
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It said if they pay their tax and behave then they're good. Isn't that more in line with Western values (which came from the East in large part) than 'kill the men and enslave the women and children'?
KB5252 said:
If you believe there is something left out of the transition I cited please put out there. If I don't know what's missing I can't put it together for you. You'll have to do that.
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Here you go: Understanding a Difficult Verse, Qur'an 4:34: Additional Translations | The Feminist Sexual Ethics Project | Brandeis University
 
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#4,312
#4,312
KB5252 said:
Married and consummated marriage yes. There are multiple Sunnah references to her being of six and 9. One even attributed to her says at the time she plays with dolls.

You can question Sunnah in Islam if are seeking understanding or clarity, not to reject or mock it

So by that standard if you are asking questions trying disprove what is written, her age in this instance, it could be considered Haram.
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That's back to scriptural belief while we were discussing what really happened though.
I understand that if a hadith can be disproved or shown to be doubtful then its status is adjusted. There are apparently a lot of 'weak' hadiths that don't get much respect.
 
#4,313
#4,313
EasternVol said:
Didn't Jesus say that he didn't come to change the law? There are a lot of people who call themselves Christians that have mindsets incompatible with Western values. Many of them post here. There are a lot of people who call themselves Muslims like that too. Then there's the majority of both religions who are well in line with what we think of as Western values.

It said if they pay their tax and behave then they're good. Isn't that more in line with Western values (which came from the East in large part) than 'kill the men and enslave the women and children'?

Here you go: Understanding a Difficult Verse, Qur'an 4:34: Additional Translations | The Feminist Sexual Ethics Project | Brandeis University
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It is western value to pay a tax strictly based on your religion? No, that isn't in any way a western value. Pay your religious tax and submit to Islamic law or else?

I'll read over the link when I have more time but I'm already somewhat skeptical based on the source.
 
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#4,315
#4,315
KB5252 said:
It is western value to pay a tax strictly based on your religion? No, that isn't in any way a western value. Pay your religious tax and submit to Islamic law or else?

I'll read over the link when I have more time but I'm already somewhat skeptical based on the source.
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Everybody pays taxes.
The link is a list of translations of that verse by different people. They all have an adverb which wasn't in your text. What's the Christian scriptural reference on how women are to be treated? If I remember correctly it's not at all in line with current Western values.
With the acknowledged context I think it's clarified that there's no instruction to just kill non-believers. Let's see how treatment of women goes.
At any rate religious freedom is thankfully guaranteed in the US. We've done a fairly good job in keeping religious bias out of our laws in the last hundred or so years. Ideally that will continue. Let people be welcome here regardless of creed or lack thereof, let them practice what they believe as long as it doesn't harm anyone, and don't let anyone impose their beliefs on others. I don't think there's evidence that one or more religions are more or are less compatible with Western values than others. Or is it the presence or absence of religious belief that's key?
 
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#4,316
#4,316
EasternVol said:
Everybody pays taxes.
The link is a list of translations of that verse by different people. They all have an adverb which wasn't in your text. What's the Christian scriptural reference on how women are to be treated? If I remember correctly it's not at all in line with current Western values.
With the acknowledged context I think it's clarified that there's no instruction to just kill non-believers. Let's see how treatment of women goes.
At any rate religious freedom is thankfully guaranteed in the US. We've done a fairly good job in keeping religious bias out of our laws in the last hundred or so years. Ideally that will continue. Let people be welcome here regardless of creed or lack thereof, let them practice what they believe as long as it doesn't harm anyone, and don't let anyone impose their beliefs on others. I don't think there's evidence that one or more religions are more or less compatible with Western values than others. Or is it the presence or absence of religious belief that's key?
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I agree with you on how to treat people. I disagree that Islam is no different than others on trying to impose their moral beliefs onto the laws of a country.
I know a lot of people. I fish with a Muslim who practices the his religion the way I practice mine. Meaning I don’t expect people to not sell and eat pork because I keep a kosher diet. If all Muslims have this attitude then there will be no problems.
 
#4,318
#4,318
EasternVol said:
Everybody pays taxes.
The link is a list of translations of that verse by different people. They all have an adverb which wasn't in your text. What's the Christian scriptural reference on how women are to be treated? If I remember correctly it's not at all in line with current Western values.
With the acknowledged context I think it's clarified that there's no instruction to just kill non-believers. Let's see how treatment of women goes.
At any rate religious freedom is thankfully guaranteed in the US. We've done a fairly good job in keeping religious bias out of our laws in the last hundred or so years. Ideally that will continue. Let people be welcome here regardless of creed or lack thereof, let them practice what they believe as long as it doesn't harm anyone, and don't let anyone impose their beliefs on others. I don't think there's evidence that one or more religions are more or less compatible with Western values than others. Or is it the presence or absence of religious belief that's key?
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Not everybody pays a specific religious tax though, it's a specific tax only imposed on non Muslims.

I think my biggest problem with Islam is that the religion is the law. Most Islamic countries have religious courts.

As I've stated elsewhere I have no problem with Muslim people, I would think most are good people. I would not like to see some of their religious culture described above creep into our society however.
 
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#4,319
#4,319
KB5252 said:
Not everybody pays a specific religious tax though, it's a specific tax only imposed on non Muslims.

I think my biggest problem with Islam is that the religion is the law. Most Islamic countries have religious courts.

As I've stated elsewhere I have no problem with Muslim people, I would think most are good people. I would not like to see some of their religious culture described above creep into our society however.
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Religious culture creeping into our society is MUCH more of a problem from Christianity
 
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#4,324
#4,324
McDad said:
Not sure what the intent of this is.

But aren't those things much better in predominately Christian countries compared to predominantly muslim?
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The point of this is that people keep pearl-clutching about Islam "seeping into" our laws or government when, if anything, it's Christianity actually doing that. It's incredibly hypocritical
 
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#4,325
#4,325
NashVol11 said:
The point of this is that people keep pearl-clutching about Islam "seeping into" our laws or government when, if anything, it's Christianity actually doing that. It's incredibly hypocritical
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Do you think If Islam crept into our laws that would be better for the issues you listed?
 
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