Israel vs Palestinians II

[n_huffhines]

Because Arabs in the region where Isreal is dominant have not had a history which shows they are more focused on peace, freedom, and democratic self-governance protecting rights.
As far as I can tell, Arabs living in Israel are better off (with peace, freedom, rights) than those living outside.
Again, if an Arab state is on par or better than Israel, turn control over to them. Doesn't matter to me.

The US and Israel have been creating problems for the Arab world for 70-80 years. We can take a huge chunk of blame for Iran regressing on civil rights and becoming an authoritarian theocracy, for example.

Another example, Israel started a war with several of its neighbors, took their land violating international law (I have to say all this because you just suggested Israel should have control when in fact they have had control for 58 years, and that's precisely the source of all of Gaza's problems), and has been illegally occupying it ever since. And your justification for supporting the solution that Israel wants, and is committing genocide to achieve, is your perception that Arabs live better in Israel than in other countries?

Why are rule of law people so against following international law? It is wild. We literally wrote these laws that Israel is violating because of Hitler, and we DGAF. Are they bad laws? Explain why we don't want a law that says you can't attack another country and then take land from them?

BTW, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Jordan, and Kuwait are much more peaceful than we are.

 

[EasternVol]

Because Arabs in the region where Isreal is dominant have not had a history which shows they are more focused on peace, freedom, and democratic self-governance protecting rights.
As far as I can tell, Arabs living in Israel are better off (with peace, freedom, rights) than those living outside.
Again, if an Arab state is on par or better than Israel, turn control over to them. Doesn't matter to me.

That's a very imperious attitude, to deny self determination because their neighbors haven't been sparkling examples of tranquility and Western liberal democracy. What post colonial region has? By the way how has Israel shown they're focused on peace?
We can't lump all Arabs together. Different countries in the region have had very different forms of government (many imposed by their erstwhile colonial masters) and histories post WWII. Actually Lebanon was doing pretty well in the areas you mention until things fell apart, in no small measure exacerbated by their neighbors to the south.
There's also the matter of Israeli demographics. I doubt Israel would accept the Gazans as citizens since that would be a major increase in the non-Jewish share of their population. And we've seen how many rights and how much peace those living under Israeli occupation get.

 

[hog88]

The US and Israel have been creating problems for the Arab world for 70-80 years. We can take a huge chunk of blame for Iran regressing on civil rights and becoming an authoritarian theocracy, for example.

Another example, Israel started a war with several of its neighbors, took their land violating international law (I have to say all this because you just suggested Israel should have control when in fact they have had control for 58 years, and that's precisely the source of all of Gaza's problems), and has been illegally occupying it ever since. And your justification for supporting the solution that Israel wants, and is committing genocide to achieve, is your perception that Arabs live better in Israel than in other countries?

Why are rule of law people so against following international law? It is wild. We literally wrote these laws that Israel is violating because of Hitler, and we DGAF. Are they bad laws? Explain why we don't want a law that says you can't attack another country and then take land from them?

BTW, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Jordan, and Kuwait are much more peaceful than we are.

LOL What a joke.

 

[McDad]

That's a very imperious attitude, to deny self determination because their neighbors haven't been sparkling examples of tranquility and Western liberal democracy. What post colonial region has? By the way how has Israel shown they're focused on peace?
We can't lump all Arabs together. Different countries in the region have had very different forms of government (many imposed by their erstwhile colonial masters) and histories post WWII. Actually Lebanon was doing pretty well in the areas you mention until things fell apart, in no small measure exacerbated by their neighbors to the south.
There's also the matter of Israeli demographics. I doubt Israel would accept the Gazans as citizens since that would be a major increase in the non-Jewish share of their population. And we've seen how many rights and how much peace those living under Israeli occupation get.

Who needs a "sparkling example"? Just show us a basic, bare-minimum example they coalesce around peace, prosperity, self governance, protection of rights.

The bar is so low, all I am asking for is any hint it has been seen.

If not, the only hope is to bring in others who can govern.

 

[MAD]

Stop the persecution of Christians.

 

[MAD]

Beautiful

 

[MAD]

 

[lawgator1]

 

[MAD]

 

[BeardedVol]

British Mandate of Palestine 2.0.

That should end as well as the first one.

 

[lawgator1]

To those who understand the dynamics better, is this proposal real, or show for some other purpose?

 

[volfanhill]

Not only that, Haim Rubinstein revealed to the world that Hamas offered to return all hostages on day 2...but whoever in leadership that knew (on both sides of our alliance) about the offer, hid it from the Israeli and American people.

No strings attached offer? Of course not. It was dont seek retribution. You can't allow them to do this and not act

 

[bamawriter]

To those who understand the dynamics better, is this proposal real, or show for some other purpose?

If it's real, Hamas is going to reject it and Israel will continue the war until Hamas is destroyed.

If it's just a ploy to force Hamas to reject it so that Israel can continue the war until Hamas is destroyed... we'll never know because Hamas aren't going to call Trump's bluff.

 

[n_huffhines]

No strings attached offer? Of course not. It was dont seek retribution. You can't allow them to do this and not act

It's a deal, right? Of course there are strings. The point is they hid it. If it's such a bad deal then they wouldn't need to hide it.

 

[volfanhill]

It's a deal, right? Of course there are strings. The point is they hid it. If it's such a bad deal then they wouldn't need to hide it.

Not true at all. But they should have been transparent. Just bc the public might view it as a good deal doesn't mean its so. And the public would be highly influenced by emotion and the desires of the families the hostages. Its the “we dont negotiate with terrorists” conundrum.

 

[n_huffhines]

Hey, @volfanhill did you see that this proposed deal would see Isreal release 250 life-sentence prisoners and a total of 1,950 detained Palestinians. I tried to explain to you that this is called a counter offer.

 

[n_huffhines]

Not true at all. But they should have been transparent. Just bc the public might view it as a good deal doesn't mean its so. And the public would be highly influenced by emotion and the desires of the families the hostages. Its the “we dont negotiate with terrorists” conundrum.

Israel practices state terrorism. We align with terrorists.

 

[volfanhill]

Hey, @volfanhill did you see that this proposed deal would see Isreal release 250 life-sentence prisoners and a total of 1,950 detained Palestinians. I tried to explain to you that this is called a counter offer.

And if I were in charge i would say hell no. My counter is I will give you zero quarter until everyone of mine you have is home. And I wouldn't budge. Do you think America would be negotiating like this with a bunch of terrorist f-heads? No we would not. We shouldn't expect others to.

 

[n_huffhines]

And if I were in charge i would say hell no. My counter is I will give you zero quarter until everyone of mine you have is home. And I wouldn't budge. Do you think America would be negotiating like this with a bunch of terrorist f-heads? No we would not. We shouldn't expect others to.

This makes no sense because Israel started it in 1967. Everybody dies with your method.

 

[n_huffhines]

To those who understand the dynamics better, is this proposal real, or show for some other purpose?

At first glance, the deal looks pretty good and takes things Hamas was demanding and delivers. I think it will be hard for them to trust it. I have a hard time trusting it myself. But they really don't have much of a choice.

Of course, we get more involved and that's not great for us.

 

[volfanhill]

This makes no sense because Israel started it in 1967. Everybody dies with your method.

Do you believe blockades are an act of war?

 

[n_huffhines]

Do you believe blockades are an act of war? Particularly ones that block your only port

They had multiple other ports that were open. This is what happened...

The Soviet Union tells Arab states that Israel is gearing up to go to war.

Egypt says, well the least we could do is prevent them from arming up via Tiran.

Israel beats the **** out of everybody because they were indeed arming up, and they were ready. They illegally seized territory and have held it for 58 years.

Even if you want to say that this blockade was an act of war, international law doesn't allow the seizure of land just because you were upset about a blockade.

 

[volfanhill]

They had multiple other ports that were open. This is what happened...

The Soviet Union tells Arab states that Israel is gearing up to go to war.

Egypt says, well the least we could do is prevent them from arming up via Tiran.

Israel beats the **** out of everybody because they were indeed arming up, and they were ready. They illegally seized territory and have held it for 58 years.

Even if you want to say that this blockade was an act of war, international law doesn't allow the seizure of land just because you were upset about a blockade.

Only port on that sea. International law does call a blockade an act of war. Your claim is bull squeeze and revisionist. Egypt blockaded. Israel responded. War is war. And here we are.

Some side notes too:

Soviets were FOS
This was the second time Israel was blockaded


Not Israels fault that Egypt and Syria fell for Russian lies.

https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/meria/meria03_gii01.pdf#:~:text=The%20Soviet%20warning%20to%20Egypt%20about%20supposed,action%20that%20would%20provoke%20an%20Israeli%20strike.

 

[n_huffhines]

Only port on that sea. International law does call a blockade an act of war. Your claim is bull squeeze and revisionist. Egypt blockaded. Israel responded. War is war. And here we are.

What did I revise? What did I say that's wrong?

Again, it's OK if you want to call it an "act of war." That doesn't change the point. A blockade isn't necessarily a war crime. Egypt did not commit a war crime in this case. Israel did, and it's a crime that has been maintained in perpetuity for 58 years.

Cool that you can label it "an act of war" but that doesn't justify everything that's come after this. It wasn't even the people in Gaza who had anything to do with the blockade. It was scared people in the Egyptian government. So then the people of Gaza are just ****ed forever, and you think this is fine because Egypt didn't want Israel to arm up against them?

It seems your whole purpose is to justify Israel, you don't care about what's right for the pawns.

 

[volfanhill]

What did I revise? What did I say that's wrong?

Again, it's OK if you want to call it an "act of war." That doesn't change the point. A blockade isn't necessarily a war crime. Egypt did not commit a war crime in this case. Israel did, and it's a crime that has been maintained in perpetuity for 58 years.

Cool that you can label it "an act of war" but that doesn't justify everything that's come after this. It wasn't even the people in Gaza who had anything to do with the blockade. It was scared people in the Egyptian government. So then the people of Gaza are just ****ed forever, and you think this is fine because Egypt didn't want Israel to arm up against them?

It seems your whole purpose is to justify Israel, you don't care about what's right for the pawns.

You seem to only want to blame Israel. That's whats revisionsit. You talk about international law when it fits your narrative. Blockades are an act of war according to international law and the UN. Once you declare war on me don't complain if I F you up and take your stuff. So your premise that Israel started it falls flat on its face off the jump. It is not Israelis fault Evypt and Syria fell for USSR bull. As far as the current problem goes, Israelis primary concern are her people and insuring something like that never happens again. People of Gaza are screwed by Hamas. They should be revolting like crazy to have the hoatage returned. You want blame someone it starts with Hamas. If you want to blame someone for 1967 it goes:

Egypt
Syria
USSR
Israel


But you only talk about Israel