Sharia Law: Coming to a Neighborhood Near You.

[GVF]

Messiah means leader and/or savior. And in Islam Jesus is considered the savior of mankind. He is the one who will return on the day of judgment to defeat the Anti-Christ (dajjal in Islam). Not Muhammad. So while you are correct Muslims don't believe Jesus is the "son of God" or God himself. They do believe that he is the savior of mankind from the Anti-Christ.

With regard to the Jews being the chosen people. I'm pretty sure that ended after they rejected Jesus. I'm pretty sure mainstream Christian theology says that the people who followed Christ are the ones who then became God's chosen people not those who rejected Christ.

Christians didn't like Jews for most of their history. This love affair with Jews by Evangelical Christians is a relatively new phenomenon. Go back a century and there was no kinship by Christians with Jews. The Jews were viewed as the ones who killed Jesus and despised for it.

Point 1 - You cannot scripturally truly believe christ is the Messiah/Savior without acknolwedging he is the Son of God/Trinity.

Point 2 - Agreed. Consistent with scripture that says salvation was first for hte Jews then the Gentiles. Meaning after the Crucifixion, Jesus' blood covered the sins of all people that would accept it. That was Mosaical prophecies fulfilled.

Point 3 - IMHO, most evangelical and political love affairs (as you say) with Israel is for lack of a better brief descritpion a union of the lesser of two evils aginst a greater force seeking your destruction. Biblically, a hardline Hasidic Jew still has an open invitation for Jesus' salvation or the Word would have no credibility. I say hardliner specifically to differentiate that from say a messianic or new testament "jew" of today that would be the equivalent to the converts of Acts. But, for one to be a true christian, one cannot have hate in their for the generalized group. And that would also go for my suspicions of that other group, which is clearly different than hate. I'm also suspicious of snake handler curches, but I don't hate them.

 

[CubsFanTN]

Messiah means leader and/or savior. And in Islam Jesus is considered the savior of mankind. He is the one who will return on the day of judgment to defeat the Anti-Christ (dajjal in Islam). Not Muhammad. So while you are correct Muslims don't believe Jesus is the "son of God" or God himself. They do believe that he is the savior of mankind from the Anti-Christ.

With regard to the Jews being the chosen people. I'm pretty sure that ended after they rejected Jesus. I'm pretty sure mainstream Christian theology says that the people who followed Christ are the ones who then became God's chosen people not those who rejected Christ.

Christians didn't like Jews for most of their history. This love affair with Jews by Evangelical Christians is a relatively new phenomenon. Go back a century and there was no kinship by Christians with Jews. The Jews were viewed as the ones who killed Jesus and despised for it.

I get that, Muhammad stripped Jesus of his divinity in order to implement his own set of rules and achieve his personal aspirations. Joseph Smith did the same thing, although it was political power by more democratic means and not military conquest. I think Muhammad and Joseph Smith would be very VERY surprised to see their movements still alive today.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Until they are called (or forced) to radicalize?

Ignoring the growth of the call for muslim law in cities around the country like Minneapolis likewise is not based in reality. City governments can implement noise ordinances to allow calls to prayer to appease a singular religion (which is the integration of church and state), but fire HS football coaches for praying with players. It's the UK in America. It's the no go zones in Australia where Aussies are policed away from Muslims zones in a supposedly free country.

@slice doesn't eat pork either, but you don't see him clamoring for Sharia or chanting death to america in our own streets.

Ya, I don’t think I can force anyone to recognize the G-d of A,I,and J. And forced worship is worthless to a G-d who gives you free will to not worship him.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Actually they did get a messenger. Jesus Christ. Through Jesus, God in fact did say that what once was for the Jews (Mosaical Law) is now for all people (the Gentiles- anyone other than Jews). Through Jesus' death and ressurection, God's Word was hte end all for all people that would accept it. I would like to see where you say God says the Quran was necessary and why it exists. The Law of God is a perfected law through the death and ressurection. It needs no other endorsement.

FYI I'm simply presenting the argument the Quran makes. I'm not actually arguing God said those things. I've said before I'm not a believer in any religion. I am simply a curious individual who likes to read and learn as much knowledge as I can. The argument there is that's what the Quran alleges for why it exists. It exists for the Arabs who at that time were mostly pagans.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You can’t be a Muslim and not follow the Quran.

You'd be surprised. The Sunnis and Shias actually place greater emphasis on their hadiths. For example, I'm sure you know Muslims pray 5 times a day. Prayer being one of the pillars of being a Muslim. And yet there isn't a single verse in the Quran that says you must pray 5 times a day. In fact the only verse that enumerates a number of times you should pray says you should pray 3 times a day (morning, evening, and night). Why don't Muslims follow the Quran? Because the hadiths say its 5.

Just another in the long list of hilarious contradictions you find between what religious people do versus what the holy texts actually say.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Point 1 - You cannot scripturally truly believe christ is the Messiah/Savior without acknolwedging he is the Son of God/Trinity.

I'm pretty sure the Jews who are waiting for the "true messiah" since they believe Jesus was a fraud are not waiting for someone who is the son of God or part of a trinity.

The trinity is a uniquely Christian delusion. And a later one at that considering the trinity didn't become accepted Christian dogma until 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea. The Bible for example never mentions the word trinity.

 

[Smokey123]

You'd be surprised. The Sunnis and Shias actually place greater emphasis on their hadiths. For example, I'm sure you know Muslims pray 5 times a day. Prayer being one of the pillars of being a Muslim. And yet there isn't a single verse in the Quran that says you must pray 5 times a day. In fact the only verse that enumerates a number of times you should pray says you should pray 3 times a day (morning, evening, and night). Why don't Muslims follow the Quran? Because yhe hadiths say its 5.

Just another in the long list of hilarious contradictions you find between what religious people do versus what the holy texts actually say.

Like I said Muslims also follow the Hadith, it’s a moral guidance. That’s not a contradiction, the Quran talks about praying throughout the day and mentions at least 5 different times to pray, says follow the prophets teachings (the Hadith). Two ends of the day, 1 hour into the night, noon and afternoon is how many times?

The ignorance just keeps coming

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I get that, Muhammad stripped Jesus of his divinity in order to implement his own set of rules and achieve his personal aspirations.

So this what's interesting about the Jesus/Muhammad conundrum in Islam. The fact that Jesus and Mary have such a higher standing in the Quran than Muhammad and the fact that its Jesus who will ultimately return to save mankind on the day of judgment.

There are some historians who argue Muhammad as described by modern Muslims never actually existed but that instead early Islam was nothing more than a Christian sect that denied the divinity of Jesus. Rather than introducing a new religion Muhammad and his followers (much like Joseph Smith and Mormons) were actually Christians who simply rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ. Similar sects existed during the early parts of Christianity that rejected the idea Jesus was divine. Its why the earliest accounts of Muhammad and his followers by non-Muslim sources like John of Damascus in the 8th century never mentions the word "Muslim" or "Islam". Instead John of Damascus refers to Muhammad and his followers as "the heresy of the Ishmaelites". Ishmaelites being the biblical name for the Arabs. And since he referred to them as "heretics" that would mean Christians during the early stages of Islam's expansion viewed it not as a new religion but as Christians who were perverting the religion.

Some scholars argue that Islam only became a distinct religion rather than an offshoot of Christianity in the 9th century with the Abbasid Caliphate. Because even during the Ummayid Caliphate in the late 7th century there were coins in Damascus depicting the Islamic Shahada (aka declaration of faith) with a cross. Modern Islam has no association with the cross. But during the first century of Islam there was an association between Muhammad and the cross.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

That’s not a contradiction, the Quran talks about praying throughout the day and mentions at least 5 different times to pray, says follow the prophets teachings (the Hadith). Two ends of the day, 1 hour into the night, noon and afternoon is how many times?

The ignorance just keeps coming

No its a contradiction. Cause the Quran NEVER mentions praying 5 times. Not once. I dare you to find the verse that mentions 5 daily prayers.

Here's the only verse than even alludes to a number of times you should pray: Surah Hud - 114 - Quran.com

"Establish prayer ˹O Prophet˺ at both ends of the day and in the early part of the night. Surely good deeds wipe out evil deeds. That is a reminder for the mindful."

 
The two ends of the day are dawn and evening. Right when sun rises and when it sets. Then the night time prayer. That’s three. I don't see any logical path to getting to 5 prayers from this verse.

All other versus in the Quran simply refer to establishing prayer generally. Never enumerating a specific number. If praying 5 times a day is so important you would Allah would state it explicitly AT LEAST ONCE in the entire Quran.

 

[CubsFanTN]

So this what's interesting about the Jesus/Muhammad conundrum in Islam. The fact that Jesus and Mary have such a higher standing in the Quran than Muhammad and the fact that its Jesus who will ultimately return to save mankind on the day of judgment.

There are some historians who argue Muhammad as described by modern Muslims never actually existed but that instead early Islam was nothing more than a Christian sect that denied the divinity of Jesus. Rather than introducing a new religion Muhammad and his followers (much like Joseph Smith and Mormons) were actually Christians who simply rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ. Similar sects existed during the early parts of Christianity that rejected the idea Jesus was divine. Its why the earliest accounts of Muhammad and his followers by non-Muslim sources like John of Damascus in the 8th century never mentions the word "Muslim" or "Islam". Instead John of Damascus refers to Muhammad and his followers as "the heresy of the Ishmaelites". Ishmaelites being the biblical name for the Arabs. And since he referred to them not as heretics that would mean Christians during the early stages of Islam's expansion viewed it not as a new religion but as Christians who were perverting the religion.

Some scholars argue that Islam only became a distinct religion rather than an offshoot of Christianity in the 9th century with the Abbasid Caliphate. Because even during the Ummayid Caliphate in the late 7th century there were coins in Damascus depicting the Islamic Shahada (aka declaration of faith) with a cross. Modern Islam has no association with the cross. But during the first century of Islam there was an association between Muhammad and the cross.

Other than Jesus, claiming to be the messiah never works out. Claiming to be a prophet or messenger of God, on the other hand. In his own way, Muhammed was a political and military genius, and downplaying his role in his "prophecy" was a part of that.

 

[Smokey123]

Like I said Muslims also follow the Hadith, it’s a moral guidance. That’s not a contradiction, the Quran talks about praying throughout the day and mentions at least 5 different times to pray, says follow the prophets teachings (the Hadith). Two ends of the day, 1 hour into the night, noon and afternoon is how many times?

The ignorance just keeps coming

No its a contradiction. Cause the Quran NEVER mentions praying 5 times. Not once. I dare you to find the verse that mentions 5 daily prayers.

Here's the only verse than even alludes to a number of times you should pray: Surah Hud - 114 - Quran.com


 
The two ends of the day are dawn and evening. Right when sun rises and when it sets. Then the night time prayer. That’s three. I don't see any logical path to getting to 5 prayers from this verse.

All other versus in the Quran simply refer to establishing prayer generally. Never enumerating a specific number.

 

[Smokey123]

Loved how he shifted from the evil Talmud and Jews believing in eternal hell to contradictions of the Quran because he got called on his bs. What a joke

 

[EasternVol]

So you are saying that dozens of actual Muslim scholars who studied every piece of text and tradition of the ancient Islamic world, and that have been verified through Christian, Jewish, Greek and Arabic sources who experienced these events are all wrong, and made it up, even things Muhammed's followers and family members and the victims all stated?

One would have to know which 'scholar' wrote which blurb you posted and then go from there. But since you're afraid to provide the link the claims are pretty worthless.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Loved how he shifted from the evil Talmud and Jews believing in eternal hell to contradictions of the Quran because he got called on his bs. What a joke

Now you're shifting the subject. Where in the verse are noon and afternoon mentioned? "Two ends of the day. And then the early part of the night." Not a single mention of noon or afternoon.

 

[Smokey123]

Now you're shifting the subject. Where in the verse are noon and afternoon mentioned? "Two ends of the day. And then the early part of the night." Not a single mention of noon or afternoon.

There is like 80 verses talking about prayer. Maybe read the book you’re trying to lecture people on

 

[EasternVol]

Executed Nadr/Uqba along with about 50 others after the Battle of Badr which he raided a village for goods, and held other 70 villagers for ransom
- Encouraged Muslims to fight and kill the Meccans, Something Jesus would never have done
- Ordered raids on tons of Meccan caravans, to loot goods, kill people and take prisoners
- Ordered a seige and blockade of Jewish camps, and ordered the murder of Ka'B ibn al-Ashraf under the guise of needing food
- Decided after one of his schizophrenic episodes with Satan, to allow Muslim men to "own" up to 4 wives
- Stole more Jewish land from villages after claiming "he saw a vision where someone dropped a boulder on his head" thus the muslims needed to take the fertile lands
- Invaded the Banu Mustaliq taking all their animals and food, and enslaved 200 women as sex slaves who were raped
- Invaded the Banu Quranyza and beheaded 600-900 of men and enslaved all the women and children; Before the battle Muhammad personally gestured that if they didn't surrender he would slit their throats
- Marrying and having sexual relations with a 6 year old
- Ordered the execution of village leader Umm Qirfa
- Invaded the Jewish city of Khaybar; again executed male prisoners and used the women as sex slaves
- Tortured the chief of the Jews to get treasure and then executed him, and took his wife for his own sex slave
- Invaded Mecca and and forced their residents to convert to Islam or be killed; again killed hundreds, took their wives and children as slaves
- Invaded Syria and forced paid extortion under penalty of death



Here's my challenge to you...you try to refute each of these points with actual facts

Hint (You can't)

That claim about marriage to a six year old is refuted by comparing the girl's age at certain known events. It seems she was mid to late teens.

 

[EasternVol]

Agreed on your later points. Except when was last time you've been to Sydney. I've never been. Just had some reels coming accross my feed of whites trying to go in those areas peacefully and local Aussie cops threatening that they'd be arrested for disrupting peace. One could also argue their intentions. I took it they were trying to show what was going on. It could also be isolated. The one thing that was obvious is that it was strictly a 'muslim' reatil area, except for the cop assigned to that area to ask the whotey why they were there. But, to be honest and fair, one needs to acknowledge the mass migrations to these large cities and the issues it has caused them.

First question about the protestant...I'm not sure who you are referencing or when it happened. More detail might jog the memory, so I'd be remiss to attempt to put more thought on it. But, as you have referenced it I know what my first thought would be at a high level.

The call to prayer reference...There are towns, up north, that have relaxed noise ordinances in order to allow calls to prayer in the public 5 times a day. This is integrating church and state for a specific group or religion, while at the same time saying christian prayer can't be allowed in schools or other places constitutionally. We have local governments cowtailing to one group and denying others. A religion of love would be able to maintain those daily prayers without demanding all others make room for them unequivocally. If these are those friendly normal neighbors that demand their religion be above our laws....just sayin'.

I was last in Sydney 8 years ago or so. It's a nice town, worth a visit, Perth too.
The Protestant was Jeremiah Wright. Context matters in such statements.
Allowing calls to prayer isn't merging church and state. It's following the courts' current interpretation of the Constitution (First Amendment). The same applies for church bells and other calls to worship. I believe sound levels are restricted so as to not disturb those who don't abide. I agree that no group should be able to disturb others under the guise of religious freedom.
Aren't prayers allowed in public schools as long as students can opt out?

 

[GVF]

I'm pretty sure the Jews who are waiting for the "true messiah" since they believe Jesus was a fraud are not waiting for someone who is the son of God or part of a trinity.

The trinity is a uniquely Christian delusion. And a later one at that considering the trinity didn't become accepted Christian dogma until 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea. The Bible for example never mentions the word trinity.

So being able to go to scripture and visible find multiple references to the plurality of God is delusional. Your theology is as dank as your Dobbs HOF NFL career prediction. You won't find a specific word "trinity" but you will find the plurality of God in triplicate, hence the term trinity. When the council chose to acknowledge it is irrelevant to the fact it was always thus.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

“I and My Father are one,”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (name of- singular; not names of - plural)

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

 

[GVF]

I was last in Sydney 8 years ago or so. It's a nice town, worth a visit, Perth too.
The Protestant was Jeremiah Wright. Context matters in such statements.
Allowing calls to prayer isn't merging church and state. It's following the courts' current interpretation of the Constitution (First Amendment). The same applies for church bells and other calls to worship. I believe sound levels are restricted so as to not disturb those who don't abide. I agree that no group should be able to disturb others under the guise of religious freedom.
Aren't prayers allowed in public schools as long as students can opt out?

I'm sure that would be a necessity if that makes prayer legal. I was also under the impression at one time that a student(s) could request a prayer of an administrator, but an administrator could not initiate one, giving the impression it was required. Or in the case of the football field scenario, maybe a player initiates and leads a prayer and hte coach can join in. This has been debated for so long it gets fuzzy.

I've always been curious about Perth. My travels growing up were because of events with dads work and were limited to UK roundabout with a shot over to Calais, and Manila and several points in the Philipines. Pretty much it, and my last excursion would have been '86. Even in the 80's there were unsafe muslim areas in the philipines, certain islands and stuff where Americans were advised not to go even though the majority of areas were very pro-American at hte time with the Marcos.

 

[CubsFanTN]

So being able to go to scripture and visible find multiple references to the plurality of God is delusional. Your theology is as dank as your Dobbs HOF NFL career prediction. You won't find a specific word "trinity" but you will find the plurality of God in triplicate, hence the term trinity. When the council chose to acknowledge it is irrelevant to the fact it was always thus.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

“I and My Father are one,”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (name of- singular; not names of - plural)

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

 

[MAD]

What’s going on here?

 

[CagleMtnVol]

What’s going on here?

Dearborn has fallen!

How many other American city's will be next?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

There is like 80 verses talking about prayer. Maybe read the book you’re trying to lecture people on

Yes. And I've read all of them. They mostly go like this: "the righteous are those that establish prayer and give charity". The requirement for prayer is almost always tied with giving charity. However what you'll never see in the Quran is a single verse saying you must pray 5 times a day. I'll gladly wait for you to prove me wrong if I'm lying.

You would think if praying 5 times a day was so important Allah would mention it at least once in his holy book. Remember I'm asking for just ONE mention. Just one.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

That claim about marriage to a six year old is refuted by comparing the girl's age at certain known events. It seems she was mid to late teens.

Yup. The hadiths that mention Aisha's age also regularly contradict it when compared to other events. In particular the age of her sister at certain events. Based on those hadiths her age is estimated to be around 18-19 years old. Which while young isn't as crazy as 9 years old.

 

[Smokey123]

Yes. And I've read all of them. They mostly go like this: "the righteous are those that establish prayer and give charity". The requirement for prayer is almost always tied with giving charity. However what you'll never see in the Quran is a single verse saying you must pray 5 times a day. I'll gladly wait for you to prove me wrong if I'm lying.

You would think if praying 5 times a day was so important Allah would mention it at least once in his holy book. Remember I'm asking for just ONE mention. Just one.

Establish prayer O Prophet at both ends of the day and in the early part of the night. Surely good deeds wipe out evil deeds. That is a reminder for the mindful.

His is all praise in the heavens and in the earth; (and glorify Him) in the afternoon and when the sun begins to decline.

That’s 5…. FIVE different times of the day the Quran says to pray. You argue just to argue, you come on here and try to lecture people and act like you know what you’re talking about when you don’t even read the books you claim to know so well.

Wanna get back to claiming Jews believe in hell?