Israel vs Palestinians II

#601
#601
"762/39" lol just making s*** up

According to an initial investigation from the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, Rajab and her relatives were killed by the Israeli army in a "planned execution"; using a US-made missile, the IDF also killed the Red Crescent paramedics sent to rescue the young girl. Shell fragments of an American-made M830A1 projectile were found at the site of the bombed Red Crescent ambulance that was looking for Rajab and her family.
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#605
#605
OrangeTsar said:
It would be remiss of me to respond without pointing out that I reject the initial premise of your question. I do not accept the figure of 20,000 children “massacred” as it comes from hardly objective sources. And even if there HAD BEEN 20,000 children killed, is it your contention that this had been done with deliberate knowledge and intent?
If you truly believe that, then of course you should condemn such. And if anyone convinces me of that fact, then I will willfully join you in condemnation
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Israel has stated their policy of collateral damage. They are willing to accept a specific number of innocent killed to take out targets.

The US has a similar standard. While I wouldn't go as far as to call it a deliberate massacre there is certainly room for criticism and at the very least warrants review and consideration.

For what it's worth I also hold Hamas responsible for their deaths.
 
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#607
#607
KB5252 said:
There is room for criticism in every campaign. Many of the criticisms of Israel are because they are Jews and the controversial way in which their state was created. But many criticisms of Israel are due to Israel's handling and prosecution of conflict, particularly against the Palestinian people. Some of it warranted and some of it not.

But again we've danced around what should be a really simple condemnation of wrong doing, even if the extent is in question.
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Yes, even those not inclined to anti-semitism have incorporated a fictitious accounting of the founding of the state into their belief of what transpired, predominantly "Jews stole the land from poor Arabs" or similar nonsense. They know nothing of the history, that the Arab is far mored the colonizer here than the Jew, nothing of the 1800s land purchases, who actually owned the land, that the British unfairly advantaged the Arab in both ability to purchase land and immigrate to it. Even to the point of British overseers encouraging the Arabs to attack the Jews while they looked the other way, and following their assumed success, those British officers would recommend abandoning the Jewish Home, as the they referred to the potential Israeli state. I doubt many of them understand the post-WW ramifications of how the lands came under British mandate and how such things are handled at conflict's conclusion. 90% of people with an opinion have no clue, and half of the remaining 10% have an agenda. I find the creation of Israel much less controversial than many.

Let's make a distinction between purposeful military strategy of targeting civilians and incidental casualty, which given the close quarters I'm surprised isn't exponentially higher. Once the distinction is made and someone can demonstrate a strategy of targeting or taking no precaution to minimize civilian casualty, then I'm willing to talk. But my first question will be 'why make Israel a historical anomaly?' That is, since when does even Western society go to these lengths to avoid civilian casualty? Hell, the Allies purposely targeted German and Japanese cities to bring the war to an end.

And I'll state, justifiably so. If a people can elect a government who initiates war, why should they be exempt from those consequences? If they can simply sit back while the war is waging remotely, what compels their government to cease? At the very least, their own injury may cause them to pull support for their warring government and petition it. There is no moral reason to exempt or avoid civilian casualty beyond what Israel has done, and is far more than nations have done historically. There's a silly notion there has to be some fairness - an equivalency - in number of casualties, that the Jew must then cease. No one does war that way.

That's not me dancing. That's flatly stating the 'world community' has emboldened Israel's enemies with 2-state stupidity, and warfare limitations they'd never impose on themselves. The caring people created and prolonged this century old battle between Arab and Jew, when Israel should have had no restraint securing their nation more permanently, long ago. I'm saying Gaza put their life in Israel's hands Oct 7, and Israel has the moral standing here to secure themselves. I like that they've minimized civilian casualty, but who the hell am I to demand of them what we'd not impose upon ourselves?

(I do have a wicked Jesco White impression)
 
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#608
#608
Persian Vol said:
Just try, try to figure out a reason to condemn Israel. Unless you think Israel truly has done nothing wrong?
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A country is made of up of numerous individuals. Individuals do wrong. Unlike Hamas, Israel typically punishes their citizens who intentionally harm Palestinian civilians.

Palestinian governments reward their citizens for harming Israelis
 
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#609
#609
Persian Vol said:
Just try, try to figure out a reason to condemn Israel. Unless you think Israel truly has done nothing wrong?
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NM unless you want to; I see that you and Tsar are talking numbers and perhaps a specific example.

That sounds subjective, like an agenda, and not a demonstrably objective example of a thing requiring condemnation.

I think he's asking for an example and stated case of what you consider a condemnable act. For example, let's say (hardy har har!!) that we can take Hames ministry numbers at face value and 80K are dead. That just a measly 1200 dead Israelis and some 200ish hostages were tallied by comparison.

Do you think that asymmetry condemnable and why?
 
#610
#610
KB5252 said:
Israel has stated their policy of collateral damage. They are willing to accept a specific number of innocent killed to take out targets.

The US has a similar standard. While I wouldn't go as far as to call it a deliberate massacre there is certainly room for criticism and at the very least warrants review and consideration.

For what it's worth I also hold Hamas responsible for their deaths.
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Well thought out reply. Thank you.
Do you think that there is an acceptable number of collateral deaths for military operations? Because I think we can both agree that zero is impossible when live rounds are flying. So there should be some way to determine when the number becomes unacceptable.
In the conflict which I have studied in depth the most; I would definitely say the civilian death tolls in the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were too high as were also the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
Full disclosure, I don’t know what that percentage or number should be myself. I just feel that Israel has not surpassed it, especially because I believe the stated casualty number are greatly exaggerated
 
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#611
#611
Smokey123 said:
What does Hamas have that shoots 900 rounds per minute?
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Well the rounds found were 762/39.
So nobody has anything that shoots 762/39 at 900 rounds per minute.
Odd that this would be a talking point for an alleged crime scene found 2 weeks after the fact
 
#619
#619
Smokey123 said:
I posted the Forensic investigation that posts videos and does a full break down
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Al Jazzy
Propaganda.
Hard pass.

Israel has punished their wrong doers. You may not like it but that’s the fact. Hamas on the other hand hides behind children and shoots from aid tents , schools, hospitals, ambulances, and employees AL Jazzy “journalist”.

Show me something they did wrong and don’t admit to and we’ll condemn it.
 
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#620
#620
Smokey123 said:
Im not sure what you’re asking
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Smokey123 said:
What does Hamas have that shoots 900 rounds per minute?
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To me the question is clear. If 900 rounds were shot in 1 minute, it could have been shot from 900 weapons. In which case any Hamas weapon can fire a minimum of one shot per minute.

Am I misunderstanding your question?
 
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#621
#621
Vol8188 said:
Why does it have to be 900 from one weapon?
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Because that’s the only way they can spin a Hamas massacre to look like Israel did it. The x95 Tavor, the M4 the Ar 15 all shoot at a rate from 700-1000 RPM.
The problem is that Hamas is using AR15s but there was still no 556 nato at the “crime scene “

Ya, Hamas has some guns that shoot at that rate too.
 
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#622
#622
Vol8188 said:
To me the question is clear. If 900 rounds were shot in 1 minute, it could have been shot from 900 weapons. In which case any Hamas weapon can fire a minimum of one shot per minute.

Am I misunderstanding your question?
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I didn’t say 900 rounds were shot.
 
#623
#623
Vol8188 said:
To me the question is clear. If 900 rounds were shot in 1 minute, it could have been shot from 900 weapons. In which case any Hamas weapon can fire a minimum of one shot per minute.

Am I misunderstanding your question?
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They’re saying that there is a recording where 30ronds from a magazine can be counted to determine rate of fire.

Another problem the experts have pointed out is Israel doesn’t employ full auto on the battlefield. They aim and shoot.
 
#624
#624
Orangeslice13 said:
Al Jazzy
Propaganda.
Hard pass.

Israel has punished their wrong doers. You may not like it but that’s the fact. Hamas on the other hand hides behind children and shoots from aid tents , schools, hospitals, ambulances, and employees AL Jazzy “journalist”.

Show me something they did wrong and don’t admit to and we’ll condemn it.
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Forensic architecture is Al Jazeera?
 
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