Israel vs Palestinians II

#103
#103
EasternVol said:
Given the level of death and destruction visited upon the people of Gaza it's hardly histrionic hyperbole.
Do you remember the draft and protests against it during the VN war?
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Israel has several non-combatan roles within the IDF for conscientious objectors and a few non-military state services seperate from the IDF that conscientious objectors may be eligible for.

I don't know how that compares to our military during the VN war era, but it's irrelevant.

Those two are taking a principled stance against the war. They gave their own measured reasoning that they were making their choice in opposition to the war. They did not present themselves as lemmings stripped of agency and given no choice but to "Kill babies or go to jail". That's histrionic hyperbole.
 
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#109
#109
n_huffhines said:
Many of you refuse to believe that Gaza is starving or that Israel is a bad actor. Convenient to your argument, Israel won't allow journalists into Gaza, so this is the best 3rd party information we got. 99 American doctors signed off on this (almost a year ago) telling the Biden admin about the horrors they witnessed. These 99 American doctors alleged:

- civilian targeting
- intentionally shooting children
- use of white phosphorous
- intentional disruption of medical care
- blockade
- deliberate harm to health care workers
- general war crimes

I’ve never seen such horrific injuries, on such a massive scale, with so few resources. Our bombs are cutting down women and children by the thousands. Their mutilated bodies are a monument to cruelty - Dr. Feroze Sidhwa, trauma and critical care surgeon, Veterans Affairs general surgeon.

IDF deliberately shooting children:

Children are universally considered innocent in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year, is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

Claims that the Gaza Ministry of Health is under-estimating the carnage:

These observations and the publicly available material detailed in the appendix lead us to believe that the death toll from this conflict is many times higher than what is reported by the Gaza Ministry of Health. We also believe this is probative evidence of widespread violations of American laws governing the use of American weapons abroad, and of International Humanitarian Law. We cannot forget scenes of unbearable cruelty directed at women and children that our government is a direct participant in.

IDF targeting health care providers:

Israel has destroyed more than half of Gaza’s healthcareresources and has killed nearly one thousand Palestinian healthcare workers, more than one out of every 20 healthcare workers in Gaza. At the same time, healthcare needs have increased massively from the lethal combination of military violence, malnutrition, disease, and displacement.

As we met our healthcare colleagues in Gaza, it was clear that they were malnourished, and both physically and mentally devastated. We quickly learned that our Palestinian healthcare colleagues were among the most traumatized people in Gaza, and perhaps in the entire world. Like virtually all people in Gaza, they had lost family members and their homes. Most lived in and around their hospitals with their surviving family in unimaginable conditions. Although they continued working a grueling schedule, they had not been paid since October 7. All were acutely aware that their work as healthcare providers had marked them as targets for Israel. This makes a mockery of the protected status hospitals and healthcare providers are granted under the oldest and most widely accepted provisions of International Humanitarian Law.

We met healthcare personnel in Gaza who worked at hospitals that had been raided and destroyed by Israel. Many of these colleagues of ours were taken by Israel during the attacks. They all told us a slightly different version of the same story: in captivity, they were barely fed, continuously physically and psychologically abused, and finally dumped naked on the side of a road. Many told us they were subjected to mock executions and other forms of mistreatment and torture. Far too many of our healthcare colleagues told us they were simply waiting to die.

This is the story on malnutrition last October. The Biden admin was told mass starvation would start in January, and they buried that info, and we are now in August, 8 months later, and people still refuse to believe that Gaza is starving.

With only marginal exceptions, everyone in Gaza is sick, injured, or both. This includes every national aid worker, every international volunteer, and probably every Israeli hostage: every man, woman, and child. While working in Gaza we saw widespread malnutrition in our patients and our Palestinian healthcare colleagues. Every one of us lost weight rapidly in Gaza despite having privileged access to food and having taken our own supplementary nutrient-dense food with us. We have photographic evidence of life-threatening malnutrition in our patients, especially children, that we are eager to share with you.

An astonishingly high percentage of our surgical incisions became infected from the combination of malnutrition, impossible operating conditions, lack of basic sanitation supplies such as soap, and lack of surgical supplies and medications, including antibiotics.

Malnutrition led to widespread spontaneous abortions, underweight newborns, and an inability of new mothers to breastfeed. This left their newborns at high risk of death given the lack of access to potable water anywhere in Gaza. Many of those infants died. In Gaza we watched malnourished mothers feed their underweight newborns infant formula made with poisonous water. We can never forget that the world abandoned these innocent women and babies.

We urge you to realize that epidemics are raging in Gaza. Israel’s continued, repeated displacement of the malnourished and sick population of Gaza, half of whom are children, to areas without running water or even toilets available is absolutely shocking. It was and remains guaranteed to result in widespread death from viral and bacterial diarrheal diseases and pneumonias, particularly in children under the age of five. Indeed, even the dreaded polio virus has reemerged in Gaza due to a combination of systematic destruction of the sanitation infrastructure, widespread malnutrition weakening immune systems, and young children having missed routine vaccinations for nearly an entire year. We worry that thousands have already died from the lethal combination of malnutrition and disease, and that tens of thousands more will die in the coming months, especially with the onset of the winter rains inGaza. Most of them will be young children.

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I have some questions about these doctors almost straight away so I didn't bother to read the entire thing.


How can a doctor treating people determine whether they were targeted on purpose or not.

It's agenda driven statements like that that make me question their objectivity. How do you.

And to your earlier point above I'm not sure anyone here is saying Israel is acting in some altruistic manner. Of course they are acting in bad faith, they are fighting a force that purposely hides behind and blend in with civilians, that's part of prosecuting the war. This isn't the old Looney Tunes cartoon where the sheepdog and coyote battle it out during the day and clock out and everything is cool again.
 
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#110
#110
n_huffhines said:
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All through history Jews believed that if they will prove themselves as loyal or submissive to their haters it will protect them - it did not.

The “good Jews” that punch their ticket for the last train to Auschwitz.
 
#111
#111
MAD said:
So no comment on anything else from my POST?
Pretty much par for the course.

I’ll say it again.
There are no innocent lives in Gaza.

The support for Hamas in Gaza is overwhelming.
SO STOP.

Stop sucking up the lies. The people of Gaza are not innocent, they are deeply indoctrinated.

Now if you want to say, well, it’s not the baby’s fault. Then arrest every parent, arrest them for child abuse. Other than that, they need to totally denazify Gaza.

THERE’S YOUR SOLUTION.
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Based off what? Less than 10% of people living in Gaza today voted for Hamas. 3/4 weren’t old enough, Half weren’t even born yet, Under 10 makes up almost 30% of their population, Their largest age group is 5-9 years old. Ya I’m sure their support sky rocketed while they oppressed and killed their own population
 
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#112
#112
Smokey123 said:
Based off what? Less than 10% of people living in Gaza today voted for Hamas. 3/4 weren’t old enough, Half weren’t even born yet, Under 10 makes up almost 30% of their population, Their largest age group is 5-9 years old. Ya I’m sure their support sky rocketed while they oppressed and killed their own population
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Not sure which part of my comment you are responding to or what it has to do with an election, are you saying the Gazans don’t support Hamas or that they are not indoctrinated?
 
#113
#113
EasternVol said:
How is that a comparison between hamas' and the IDF's death, injury, and destruction totals? Please try to focus.
Since you mentioned it though, aren't many or most Palestinians among those offspring?
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You do know I already know your counter arguments well in advance don’t you? And I have already prepared for them
IMG_2328.jpeg
 
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#114
#114
OrangeTsar said:
You do know I already know your counter arguments well in advance don’t you? And I have already prepared for them
View attachment 762426
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This is the same crusader bs that's caused conflict in the region since the first kingdom. If God wants one people or another to control it, let Him appear and give it to them. Nothing in any religious justification for taking the land - be it Muslim, Jewish, or christian - authorizes taking it by violence or martyring large segments of their populace to acquire it.
 
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#117
#117
jvol1 said:
This is the same crusader bs that's caused conflict in the region since the first kingdom. If God wants one people or another to control it, let Him appear and give it to them. Nothing in any religious justification for taking the land - be it Muslim, Jewish, or christian - authorizes taking it by violence or martyring large segments of their populace to acquire it.
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Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho you know.
God DOES appear when His people need him to.
Oh, ask ole Pharoah about Chariots and the Red Sea. That one was a BLAST.


And He will show up in Person again soon to do the same thing again.

IMG_2337.jpeg
 
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#118
#118
With respect, @MAD, there are innocent lives in Gaza. There are many innocent children. Their lost lives are a shame.

There are others in Hamas whose ideology would doubtless be different if they were ever exposed to thoughts outside Hamas’ dogma. Sadly, those people, those who are redeemable, are products of their environment.

There are likely others who are caught up be circumstances of birth, and are caught up in a conflict they did not chose and do not want.

But, this is war. And it is a war that started on October 7, 2023, by actions of the governing authority of Gaza- Hamas.

Israel has every right to defend itself, and importantly, to try to ensure their future security. They have determined that involves eradicating Hamas. I don’t blame them.

Lincoln and Grant demanded the unconditional surrender of the Confederates.

The Allies would never have let Hitler or the Tojo remain in power at the end of WW II.

Sadly, the end of both those conflicts led to lots of suffering and death on the part of innocents. This war is no different.

The only argument that the anti-Israel propagandists on this board have is to somehow minimize Hamas initial atrocities into a small part of an ongoing skirmish in which the Israeli response is disproportionate,
In reality, Israel does care about proportionality, they see this as an opportunity to eliminate at least one of the many threats to their existence.

This is war. The side Huff has chosen to be against is prevailing, and he doesn’t like it, so he makes nutso statements.

I wish the killing, all of it, would stop - even that of Gazan innocents.

The fact remains: if Hamas released all hostages and surrendered their authority in Gaza, this conflict would end. I don’t know what would follow, but the killing due to Hamas’ attack and hostage taking would end.

Hamas has all the power they need to end this conflict. Just like Lee/Jeff Davis in the 1860s. Just like Hirohito ultimately did for Japan in 1945.

What stopped those wars? Surrender.

Huff and EV, et al want this to be a conflict without resolution (surrender) because the side they do not support is prevailing.
 
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#119
#119
Ritzwatch said:
With respect, @MAD, there are innocent lives in Gaza. There are many innocent children. Their lost lives are a shame.

There are others in Hamas whose ideology would doubtless be different if they were ever exposed to thoughts outside Hamas’ dogma. Sadly, those people, those who are redeemable, are products of their environment.

There are likely others who are caught up be circumstances of birth, and are caught up in a conflict they did not chose and do not want.

But, this is war. And it is a war that started on October 7, 2023, by actions of the governing authority of Gaza- Hamas.

Israel has every right to defend itself, and importantly, to try to ensure their future security. They have determined that involves eradicating Hamas. I don’t blame them.

Lincoln and Grant demanded the unconditional surrender of the Confederates.

The Allies would never have let Hitler or the Tojo remain in power at the end of WW II.

Sadly, the end of both those conflicts led to lots of suffering and death on the part of innocents. This war is no different.

The only argument that the anti-Israel propagandists on this board have is to somehow minimize Hamas initial atrocities into a small part of an ongoing skirmish in which the Israeli response is disproportionate,
In reality, Israel does care about proportionality, they see this as an opportunity to eliminate at least one of the many threats to their existence.

This is war. The side Huff has chosen to be against is prevailing, and he doesn’t like it, so he makes nutso statements.

I wish the killing, all of it, would stop - even that of Gazan innocents.

The fact remains: if Hamas released all hostages and surrendered their authority in Gaza, this conflict would end. I don’t know what would follow, but the killing due to Hamas’ attack and hostage taking would end.

Hamas has all the power they need to end this conflict. Just like Lee/Jeff Davis in the 1860s. Just like Hirohito ultimately did for Japan in 1945.

What stopped those wars? Surrender.

Huff and EV, et al want this to be a conflict without resolution (surrender) because the side they do not support is prevailing.
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You are right RW.

100%, all the babies are innocent, every single one.

That’s why I said. It’s child abuse bringing up babies in that environment. I wish there was a way to get the babies out of there. Even in Nazi Germany there were Germans that helped Jews. There are things that the People of Gaza could do, have you heard of a single case of an Arab in Gaza helping one? They are complicit. They rather see the entire state of Israel annihilated and all the Jewish babies murdered, than care for their own babies.
 
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#120
#120
OrangeTsar said:
Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho you know.
God DOES appear when His people need him to.
Oh, ask ole Pharoah about Chariots and the Red Sea. That one was a BLAST.


And He will show up in Person again soon to do the same thing again.

View attachment 762474
Click to expand...



My man pulled out the VeggieTales!! 😄

Used to have these DVDs for my kids when they were toddlers/pre-school.
We bout to have some Sunday School up in here! I can get my wife to make snacks and bring the stickers if needed. She is really good at breaking Bible stories down to elementary school level if we need to slow things down in here too. Not that you arent doing a good job, OT. Doing a fine job buddy. I am not Sure that Eastern grasped the point of that last one though...he was talking about Sarah when the actual point was Isaac of course...
 
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#121
#121
Ritzwatch said:
With respect, @MAD, there are innocent lives in Gaza. There are many innocent children. Their lost lives are a shame.

There are others in Hamas whose ideology would doubtless be different if they were ever exposed to thoughts outside Hamas’ dogma. Sadly, those people, those who are redeemable, are products of their environment.

There are likely others who are caught up be circumstances of birth, and are caught up in a conflict they did not chose and do not want.

But, this is war. And it is a war that started on October 7, 2023, by actions of the governing authority of Gaza- Hamas.

Israel has every right to defend itself, and importantly, to try to ensure their future security. They have determined that involves eradicating Hamas. I don’t blame them.

Lincoln and Grant demanded the unconditional surrender of the Confederates.

The Allies would never have let Hitler or the Tojo remain in power at the end of WW II.

Sadly, the end of both those conflicts led to lots of suffering and death on the part of innocents. This war is no different.

The only argument that the anti-Israel propagandists on this board have is to somehow minimize Hamas initial atrocities into a small part of an ongoing skirmish in which the Israeli response is disproportionate,
In reality, Israel does care about proportionality, they see this as an opportunity to eliminate at least one of the many threats to their existence.

This is war. The side Huff has chosen to be against is prevailing, and he doesn’t like it, so he makes nutso statements.

I wish the killing, all of it, would stop - even that of Gazan innocents.

The fact remains: if Hamas released all hostages and surrendered their authority in Gaza, this conflict would end. I don’t know what would follow, but the killing due to Hamas’ attack and hostage taking would end.

Hamas has all the power they need to end this conflict. Just like Lee/Jeff Davis in the 1860s. Just like Hirohito ultimately did for Japan in 1945.

What stopped those wars? Surrender.

Huff and EV, et al want this to be a conflict without resolution (surrender) because the side they do not support is prevailing.
Click to expand...

Great post. You are correct in all of this. I probably come across as callous since I openly pull for Israel to take over all of Gaza and absorb it back into their country...but its for this reason. I actually do care about the people there especially the children. To stay in that tiny 4mile×20mile pile of rubble is a fools errand. They need to pack their stuff and go live with their brethren right next door in Jordan OR Egypt. There will never be peace with Gaza controlled by muslims especially Hamas. Isreal needs to take that little bit of land by whatever means necessary and finally put an end to this nonsense.
 
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#122
#122
marcusluvsvols said:
My man pulled out the VeggieTales!! 😄

Used to have these DVDs for my kids when they were toddlers/pre-school.
We bout to have some Sunday School up in here! I can get my wife to make snacks and bring the stickers if needed. She is really good at breaking Bible stories down to elementary school level if we need to slow things down in here too. Not that you arent doing a good job, OT. Doing a fine job buddy. I am not Sure that Eastern grasped the point of that last one though...he was talking about Sarah when the actual point was Isaac of course...
Click to expand...
Romans I beli
marcusluvsvols said:
Great post. You are correct in all of this. I probably come across as callous since I openly pull for Israel to take over all of Gaza and absorb it back into their country...but it’s for this reason. I actually do care about the people there especially the children. To stay in that tiny 4mile×20mile pile of rubble is a fools errand. They need to pack their stuff and go live with their brethren right next door in Jordan OR Egypt. There will never be peace with Gaza controlled by muslims especially Hamas. Isreal needs to take that little bit of land by whatever means necessary and finally put an end to this nonsense.
Click to expand...
Galatians 4 makes a big point of emphasizing that the inherited e of Abraham goes through the sin of the free woman (Sarah) instead of the bond servant (Hagar) so there is something correct in mentioning Sarah in this context. Of course the main point of this hat chapter i believe is the difference between the law (Hagar and Ishmael) and faith (Isaac). But the analogy is apt in that Isaac (and then Jacob (Israel) was the child given to Abraham because of his faith in God’s promise to give him a son by Sarah.
But never forget that God provided for Hagar and Ishmael in the wilderness enabling so God does care for the Arabs and made them a great nation as well. They just don’t inherent the same blessing.
 
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