Israel vs Palestinians II

#56
#56
n_huffhines said:
Cool democracy they got there. Kill babies or go to jail.
Click to expand...
Lets get past the histrionic hyperbole so we can look at this rationally.

I asked Google, "does conscription go against democracy"?
Conscription021749_Chrome.jpgPlay around with your AI and tell me if there's ackshually a consensus.

Personally, I'm against conscription. I can't say that I find it completely incompatible with democracy, though. I'm also grateful I was born in the late 70's and it was never plausible for me.

Those two have my respect. They're willing to face the consequences and stand behind their beliefs. I don't think we should be funding Israel's military (or Ukraine or any other war....), but I'm still paying my taxes. My convictions just aren't that strong.
 
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#57
#57
Many of you refuse to believe that Gaza is starving or that Israel is a bad actor. Convenient to your argument, Israel won't allow journalists into Gaza, so this is the best 3rd party information we got. 99 American doctors signed off on this (almost a year ago) telling the Biden admin about the horrors they witnessed. These 99 American doctors alleged:

- civilian targeting
- intentionally shooting children
- use of white phosphorous
- intentional disruption of medical care
- blockade
- deliberate harm to health care workers
- general war crimes

I’ve never seen such horrific injuries, on such a massive scale, with so few resources. Our bombs are cutting down women and children by the thousands. Their mutilated bodies are a monument to cruelty - Dr. Feroze Sidhwa, trauma and critical care surgeon, Veterans Affairs general surgeon.

IDF deliberately shooting children:

Children are universally considered innocent in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year, is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

Claims that the Gaza Ministry of Health is under-estimating the carnage:

These observations and the publicly available material detailed in the appendix lead us to believe that the death toll from this conflict is many times higher than what is reported by the Gaza Ministry of Health. We also believe this is probative evidence of widespread violations of American laws governing the use of American weapons abroad, and of International Humanitarian Law. We cannot forget scenes of unbearable cruelty directed at women and children that our government is a direct participant in.

IDF targeting health care providers:

Israel has destroyed more than half of Gaza’s healthcareresources and has killed nearly one thousand Palestinian healthcare workers, more than one out of every 20 healthcare workers in Gaza. At the same time, healthcare needs have increased massively from the lethal combination of military violence, malnutrition, disease, and displacement.

As we met our healthcare colleagues in Gaza, it was clear that they were malnourished, and both physically and mentally devastated. We quickly learned that our Palestinian healthcare colleagues were among the most traumatized people in Gaza, and perhaps in the entire world. Like virtually all people in Gaza, they had lost family members and their homes. Most lived in and around their hospitals with their surviving family in unimaginable conditions. Although they continued working a grueling schedule, they had not been paid since October 7. All were acutely aware that their work as healthcare providers had marked them as targets for Israel. This makes a mockery of the protected status hospitals and healthcare providers are granted under the oldest and most widely accepted provisions of International Humanitarian Law.

We met healthcare personnel in Gaza who worked at hospitals that had been raided and destroyed by Israel. Many of these colleagues of ours were taken by Israel during the attacks. They all told us a slightly different version of the same story: in captivity, they were barely fed, continuously physically and psychologically abused, and finally dumped naked on the side of a road. Many told us they were subjected to mock executions and other forms of mistreatment and torture. Far too many of our healthcare colleagues told us they were simply waiting to die.

This is the story on malnutrition last October. The Biden admin was told mass starvation would start in January, and they buried that info, and we are now in August, 8 months later, and people still refuse to believe that Gaza is starving.

With only marginal exceptions, everyone in Gaza is sick, injured, or both. This includes every national aid worker, every international volunteer, and probably every Israeli hostage: every man, woman, and child. While working in Gaza we saw widespread malnutrition in our patients and our Palestinian healthcare colleagues. Every one of us lost weight rapidly in Gaza despite having privileged access to food and having taken our own supplementary nutrient-dense food with us. We have photographic evidence of life-threatening malnutrition in our patients, especially children, that we are eager to share with you.

An astonishingly high percentage of our surgical incisions became infected from the combination of malnutrition, impossible operating conditions, lack of basic sanitation supplies such as soap, and lack of surgical supplies and medications, including antibiotics.

Malnutrition led to widespread spontaneous abortions, underweight newborns, and an inability of new mothers to breastfeed. This left their newborns at high risk of death given the lack of access to potable water anywhere in Gaza. Many of those infants died. In Gaza we watched malnourished mothers feed their underweight newborns infant formula made with poisonous water. We can never forget that the world abandoned these innocent women and babies.

We urge you to realize that epidemics are raging in Gaza. Israel’s continued, repeated displacement of the malnourished and sick population of Gaza, half of whom are children, to areas without running water or even toilets available is absolutely shocking. It was and remains guaranteed to result in widespread death from viral and bacterial diarrheal diseases and pneumonias, particularly in children under the age of five. Indeed, even the dreaded polio virus has reemerged in Gaza due to a combination of systematic destruction of the sanitation infrastructure, widespread malnutrition weakening immune systems, and young children having missed routine vaccinations for nearly an entire year. We worry that thousands have already died from the lethal combination of malnutrition and disease, and that tens of thousands more will die in the coming months, especially with the onset of the winter rains inGaza. Most of them will be young children.

 
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#58
#58
MemphisVol77 said:
Lets get past the histrionic hyperbole so we can look at this rationally.

I asked Google, "does conscription go against democracy"?
View attachment 762199Play around with your AI and tell me if there's ackshually a consensus.

Personally, I'm against conscription. I can't say that I find it completely incompatible with democracy, though. I'm also grateful I was born in the late 70's and it was never plausible for me.

Those two have my respect. They're willing to face the consequences and stand behind their beliefs. I don't think we should be funding Israel's military (or Ukraine or any other war....), but I'm still paying my taxes. My convictions just aren't that strong.
Click to expand...

Hyperbole? You realize the IDF is killing babies on a massive scale, right? It's not hyperbole. This is indisputable fact.

I didn't say it goes against democracy. Democracy is mob rule. It's whatever the 51% want. There is nothing inherently good about democracy because the mob can be bad.

People like to say "Israel is the only democracy in the region." as if that's a reason to help them mass murder women and children. I'm saying a democracy sucks if it forces its civilians to be babykillers. What is even the point of democracy if we are still slaves to the state on this level?
 
#60
#60
MemphisVol77 said:
Lets get past the histrionic hyperbole so we can look at this rationally.

I asked Google, "does conscription go against democracy"?
View attachment 762199Play around with your AI and tell me if there's ackshually a consensus.

Personally, I'm against conscription. I can't say that I find it completely incompatible with democracy, though. I'm also grateful I was born in the late 70's and it was never plausible for me.

Those two have my respect. They're willing to face the consequences and stand behind their beliefs. I don't think we should be funding Israel's military (or Ukraine or any other war....), but I'm still paying my taxes. My convictions just aren't that strong.
Click to expand...
Good post except that first sentence.
 
#61
#61
n_huffhines said:
Many of you refuse to believe that Gaza is starving or that Israel is a bad actor. Convenient to your argument, Israel won't allow journalists into Gaza, so this is the best 3rd party information we got. 99 American doctors signed off on this (almost a year ago) telling the Biden admin about the horrors they witnessed. These 99 American doctors alleged:

- civilian targeting
- intentionally shooting children
- use of white phosphorous
- intentional disruption of medical care
- blockade
- deliberate harm to health care workers
- general war crimes

I’ve never seen such horrific injuries, on such a massive scale, with so few resources. Our bombs are cutting down women and children by the thousands. Their mutilated bodies are a monument to cruelty - Dr. Feroze Sidhwa, trauma and critical care surgeon, Veterans Affairs general surgeon.

IDF deliberately shooting children:

Children are universally considered innocent in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year, is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

Claims that the Gaza Ministry of Health is under-estimating the carnage:

These observations and the publicly available material detailed in the appendix lead us to believe that the death toll from this conflict is many times higher than what is reported by the Gaza Ministry of Health. We also believe this is probative evidence of widespread violations of American laws governing the use of American weapons abroad, and of International Humanitarian Law. We cannot forget scenes of unbearable cruelty directed at women and children that our government is a direct participant in.

IDF targeting health care providers:

Israel has destroyed more than half of Gaza’s healthcareresources and has killed nearly one thousand Palestinian healthcare workers, more than one out of every 20 healthcare workers in Gaza. At the same time, healthcare needs have increased massively from the lethal combination of military violence, malnutrition, disease, and displacement.

As we met our healthcare colleagues in Gaza, it was clear that they were malnourished, and both physically and mentally devastated. We quickly learned that our Palestinian healthcare colleagues were among the most traumatized people in Gaza, and perhaps in the entire world. Like virtually all people in Gaza, they had lost family members and their homes. Most lived in and around their hospitals with their surviving family in unimaginable conditions. Although they continued working a grueling schedule, they had not been paid since October 7. All were acutely aware that their work as healthcare providers had marked them as targets for Israel. This makes a mockery of the protected status hospitals and healthcare providers are granted under the oldest and most widely accepted provisions of International Humanitarian Law.

We met healthcare personnel in Gaza who worked at hospitals that had been raided and destroyed by Israel. Many of these colleagues of ours were taken by Israel during the attacks. They all told us a slightly different version of the same story: in captivity, they were barely fed, continuously physically and psychologically abused, and finally dumped naked on the side of a road. Many told us they were subjected to mock executions and other forms of mistreatment and torture. Far too many of our healthcare colleagues told us they were simply waiting to die.

This is the story on malnutrition last October. The Biden admin was told mass starvation would start in January, and they buried that info, and we are now in August, 8 months later, and people still refuse to believe that Gaza is starving.

With only marginal exceptions, everyone in Gaza is sick, injured, or both. This includes every national aid worker, every international volunteer, and probably every Israeli hostage: every man, woman, and child. While working in Gaza we saw widespread malnutrition in our patients and our Palestinian healthcare colleagues. Every one of us lost weight rapidly in Gaza despite having privileged access to food and having taken our own supplementary nutrient-dense food with us. We have photographic evidence of life-threatening malnutrition in our patients, especially children, that we are eager to share with you.

An astonishingly high percentage of our surgical incisions became infected from the combination of malnutrition, impossible operating conditions, lack of basic sanitation supplies such as soap, and lack of surgical supplies and medications, including antibiotics.

Malnutrition led to widespread spontaneous abortions, underweight newborns, and an inability of new mothers to breastfeed. This left their newborns at high risk of death given the lack of access to potable water anywhere in Gaza. Many of those infants died. In Gaza we watched malnourished mothers feed their underweight newborns infant formula made with poisonous water. We can never forget that the world abandoned these innocent women and babies.

We urge you to realize that epidemics are raging in Gaza. Israel’s continued, repeated displacement of the malnourished and sick population of Gaza, half of whom are children, to areas without running water or even toilets available is absolutely shocking. It was and remains guaranteed to result in widespread death from viral and bacterial diarrheal diseases and pneumonias, particularly in children under the age of five. Indeed, even the dreaded polio virus has reemerged in Gaza due to a combination of systematic destruction of the sanitation infrastructure, widespread malnutrition weakening immune systems, and young children having missed routine vaccinations for nearly an entire year. We worry that thousands have already died from the lethal combination of malnutrition and disease, and that tens of thousands more will die in the coming months, especially with the onset of the winter rains inGaza. Most of them will be young children.

Click to expand...

At least the Nazi’s tried burning all their records at the end of the war to try and hide their despicable acts of crimes against humanity.

Hamas on the other hand wants to show the world exactly who they are.

And you are one of the useful idiots repeating everything coming from the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry.
 
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#62
#62
n_huffhines said:
Hyperbole? You realize the IDF is killing babies on a massive scale, right? It's not hyperbole. This is indisputable fact.

I didn't say it goes against democracy. Democracy is mob rule. It's whatever the 51% want. There is nothing inherently good about democracy because the mob can be bad.

People like to say "Israel is the only democracy in the region." as if that's a reason to help them mass murder women and children. I'm saying a democracy sucks if it forces its civilians to be babykillers. What is even the point of democracy if we are still slaves to the state on this level?
Click to expand...
Indisputable fact. lol.

You support the worst monsters in history.
 
#65
#65
n_huffhines said:
"You support Hamas." - a lie people tell when there is no way to defend Israel's genocide
Click to expand...
There are no innocent lives in Gaza,
Don’t talk to me about starvation, humanitarian aid.
Hamas made a starving hostage dig his own grave on video.
You saw it.
You remained silent.
They are starving, they are torturing, humiliating.
Sexually brutalizing and murdering Israeli hostages.

And you and the others are….But yeah, yeah but Israel.
SHUT UP.

THIS IS ALL ON HAMAS
Laughing, mocking, soulless.


Because of Hamas, people will die, many people will die.
 
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#67
#67
n_huffhines said:
What is even the point of democracy if we are still slaves to the state on this level?
Click to expand...
Israel declares statehood in 1948, 6 countries invade that day. About 20 years later(67), 3 countries mobilize on their border. About 6 years later(73), multiple countries attack/invade.

In Israel's case, survival of the state is the point.
EasternVol said:
Good post except that first sentence.
Click to expand...
Israel first legislated conscription in 1949. They made notable revisions in 1959 & 1986.

War is terrible. Nobody argued otherwise then. Nobody is arguing otherwise now.

"Kill babies or go to jail", is disingenuous framing that relies on histrionic hyperbole.
 
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#69
#69
MemphisVol77 said:
Israel declares statehood in 1948, 6 countries invade that day. About 20 years later(67), 3 countries mobilize on their border. About 6 years later(73), multiple countries attack/invade.

In Israel's case, survival of the state is the point.

Israel first legislated conscription in 1949. They made notable revisions in 1959 & 1986.

War is terrible. Nobody argued otherwise then. Nobody is arguing otherwise now.

"Kill babies or go to jail", is disingenuous framing that relies on histrionic hyperbole.
Click to expand...
Excellent post.
 
#72
#72
NashVol11 said:
People should feel shame when they say things like this
Click to expand...
So no comment on anything else from my POST?
Pretty much par for the course.

I’ll say it again.
There are no innocent lives in Gaza.

The support for Hamas in Gaza is overwhelming.
SO STOP.

Stop sucking up the lies. The people of Gaza are not innocent, they are deeply indoctrinated.

Now if you want to say, well, it’s not the baby’s fault. Then arrest every parent, arrest them for child abuse. Other than that, they need to totally denazify Gaza.

THERE’S YOUR SOLUTION.
 
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