Iran

[GroverCleveland]

So American troops are occupying Iran right now and demilitarizing them? Cause that's what happened to Japan after the surrendered unconditionally. Iran agreed a ceasefire. Trying to equate those two things is comical.

Huh? What?

You said Iran won because there was not a regime change and claimed that was the goal.

I simply pointed out that using that rational, Japan could claim they won. Hirohito was emperor a long time after the war ended in case you were unaware of that.

I can re-quote your original post if you like. I don't recall reading anything about occupation or demilitarization being in it.

 

[Vol8188]

So history is dumb to you. Everything I posted is historically justified. Before the Shah was put in place by the United States and Britain, Iran had a secular democracy where women were free to wear miniskirts and bikinis in public. The Islamic Revolution was in response to the toppling of this democratically elected government and the imposition of the brutal dictatorship of the Shah (who we supported).

If the United States never deposed the secular Iranian government it's likely the Islamic Revolution never happens and we have friendly relations with Iran like almost every other secular democracy. Whether you like it or not we created the Iran of today.

The American public has no appetite for a ground war in Iran so no Trump couldn't have gotten regime change "if he wanted".

I guess ideological consistency is too much to expect from you. I do not call any ground war in Iran during the 1950s involving the US?

Please inform me…

 

[Vol8188]

What troops got used in 1953?

Beat me to it

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You kill the leader until the new leader reflects the proper policies. The idea that it has to be someone completely new is a joke. Vance and Trump aren’t 100% the same. Biden and Harris weren’t either.

The idea that everyone in that chain of command from the top to the bottom are fully committed to the same policies is a joke

They're all Muslims. As long as they ruled based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs you'll have the same government. You can't bomb a people's religion away. The only way to inact regime change that isn't organic (i.e. from the people of Iran) is to occupy the country and militarily support a non-fundamentalist government.

 

[Smokey123]

They're all Muslims. As long as they ruled based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs you'll have the same government. You can't bomb a people's religion away. The only way to inact regime change that isn't organic (i.e. from the people of Iran) is to occupy the country and militarily support a non-fundamentalist government.

You think every Muslim leader will oppress and murder citizens? Wow…

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Trump knew where the Ayatollah was hiding and could have bombed him, killed him if Trump wanted regime change. Regime change could have made things worse in Iran, cause chaos. Trump's goal was to destroy iran's nuclear weapons capabilities.

Killing one man does nothing. Iran is a religious theocracy. Thats like saying if we kill the Pope the Vatican Church would collapse. No they would simply elect another Pope. To enact regime change you would need to occupy Iran and facilitate a non-fundamentalist government with US troop support.

 

[GroverCleveland]

You are just dead wrong and you are parroting the lies by Hegseth that CNN was misrepresenting the initial assessments and their interim nature. In reality, CNN reported, accurately, and REPEATEDLY, the limits of that intelligence.

I have no confidence you will watch this, but you owe it to yourself if you are interested in the truth and the misrepresentations of Hegseht yesterday, when he repeatedly lied when he said CNN's reporting was dishonest or inaccurate. In reality, they frequently made it clear what the limits were on that intelligence.

Watch this, from the 2:45 mark, and tell me if you don't see what an abject piece of shot liar Hegseth was about this:

I did watch it again. Had already seen a good part of it.

You're good at throwing the liar epithet. But you picked out what appears to be CNN's response when they got pushback.

But you didn't bother to show their initial report which was definitely slanted to cast doubt on the success of the mission, while paying some lip service to them being early reports. It was just another attack on Trump using another unconfirmed, unverified anonymous source.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

What troops got used in 1953?

We supported a successful coup d'état in 1953. The Israelis were hoping something similar would happen this time around with the air strikes and killing of military leaders. Obviously that didn't happen. Coups require internal strife and us supporting the right side on the inside that then takes over.

The problem with that now is by attacking Iran, we've actually increased public support in Iran for the Islamic regime. Because if there's anyone the Iranian people hate more than their government its Israel and America. So good luck thinking you can get another coup d'état to happen in Iran.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Huh? What?

You said Iran won because there was not a regime change and claimed that was the goal.

I simply pointed out that using that rational, Japan could claim they won. Hirohito was emperor a long time after the war ended in case you were unaware of that.

I can re-quote your original post if you like. I don't recall reading anything about occupation or demilitarization being in it.

Japan became a puppet state after the war. We demilitarized them and still have troops in their country. Iran is not a puppet state of America right now. There's nothing similar about the two situations. An absolutely silly comparison.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I guess ideological consistency is too much to expect from you. I do not call any ground war in Iran during the 1950s involving the US?

Please inform me…

The 1953 overthrow of the Iranian government was the result of a successful coup d'état. Successful coups require enough internal dissent to where outside support for one side could tip the scale. Obviously such a situation doesn't exist presently in Iran. Israel was hoping such a situation existed which is why they targeted all those Iranian military leaders. Turns out if there's one thing the Iranians hate more than the Ayatollahs it's Israel and America.

Coup d'état are Hail Mary's when it comes to regime change. The only surefire way to change a regime that has military and popular support (which is the Islamic Regime in Iran has) is an invasion and occupation where we prop up the replacement regime. You can't kill or bomb regime change when the military leadership or people in the country don't want to.

 

[GroverCleveland]

You are just dead wrong and you are parroting the lies by Hegseth that CNN was misrepresenting the initial assessments and their interim nature. In reality, CNN reported, accurately, and REPEATEDLY, the limits of that intelligence.

I have no confidence you will watch this, but you owe it to yourself if you are interested in the truth and the misrepresentations of Hegseht yesterday, when he repeatedly lied when he said CNN's reporting was dishonest or inaccurate. In reality, they frequently made it clear what the limits were on that intelligence.

Watch this, from the 2:45 mark, and tell me if you don't see what an abject piece of shot liar Hegseth was about this:

Sorry, but failed to respond in regards to the Hegseth is a liar.

After watching both videos, I would certainly say and agree Pete was overboard with his criticism based on the video you posted. A liar? Strong words when he is not wrong about the incessant attacks on the administration using anything regardless of whether is a flat out lie or not and I took it as responding more to the initial reporting and crap over the years.

The fight between Trump, the media and left makes me think of an old Lewis Grizzard saying: "like watching two mules fight over briars."

 

[Vol8188]

They're all Muslims. As long as they ruled based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs you'll have the same government. You can't bomb a people's religion away. The only way to inact regime change that isn't organic (i.e. from the people of Iran) is to occupy the country and militarily support a non-fundamentalist government.

The 1953 overthrow of the Iranian government was the result of a successful coup d'état. Successful coups require enough internal dissent to where outside support for one side could tip the scale. Obviously such a situation doesn't exist presently in Iran. Israel was hoping such a situation existed which is why they targeted all those Iranian military leaders. Turns out if there's one thing the Iranians hate more than the Ayatollahs it's Israel and America.

Coup d'état are Hail Mary's when it comes to regime change. The only surefire way to change a regime that has military and popular support (which is the Islamic Regime in Iran has) is an invasion and occupation where we prop up the replacement regime. You can't kill or bomb regime change when the military leadership or people in the country don't want to.

So regime change doesn’t require boots on the ground? Thanks for admitting you’re wrong

 

[Vol8188]

They're all Muslims. As long as they ruled based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs you'll have the same government. You can't bomb a people's religion away. The only way to inact regime change that isn't organic (i.e. from the people of Iran) is to occupy the country and militarily support a non-fundamentalist government.

Never go full retard

 

[jmacvols1]

Killing one man does nothing. Iran is a religious theocracy. Thats like saying if we kill the Pope the Vatican Church would collapse. No they would simply elect another Pope. To enact regime change you would need to occupy Iran and facilitate a non-fundamentalist government with US troop support.

Trump could have taken all the leadership of Iran out, but didn't. Trump's position is that it's up to the people of Iran if they want regime change or not.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You think every Muslim leader will oppress and murder citizens? Wow…

How did you get that from my post? We're not attacking Iran because they oppress their citizens. We attacked Iran because they're a religious theocracy that wanted nukes. The issue being their adherence to Islamic fundamentalism and the acquisition of WMDs. My post was in response to this fact. That bombing the leadership of Iran won't change the fact the people in that country are still in support of having a fundamentalist government.

As long as Iran is a country that wants to be governed according to Islam rather than secularism you're gonna have the same situation.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Japan became a puppet state after the war. We demilitarized them and still have troops in their country. Iran is not a puppet state of America right now. There's nothing similar about the two situations. An absolutely silly comparison.

None of this was in your original claim. You made the simple claim that Iran won because there was no regime change.

No more, no less. That appeared to be your sole reasoning in the post I responded to and based on that Japan, and you it seemed, could claim having won WW2. Now, you're introducing other criteria. I am not arguing about your subsequent additions, just ridiculing the initial post. No more, no less.

 

[Smokey123]

How did you get that from my post? We're not attacking Iran because they oppress their citizens. We attacked Iran because they're a religious theocracy that wanted nukes. The issue being their adherence to Islamic fundamentalism and the acquisition of WMDs. My post was in response to this fact. That bombing the leadership of Iran won't change the fact the people in that country are still in support of having a fundamentalist government.

As long as Iran is a country that wants to be governed according to Islam rather than secularism you're gonna have the same situation.

They're all Muslims. As long as they ruled based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs you'll have the same government.

I got that from your post because that’s exactly what you said LOL

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So regime change doesn’t require boots on the ground? Thanks for admitting you’re wrong

We're talking about realistic scenarios here not pie in the sky. Obviously you could get regime change anywhere with zero outside influence. The 1979 Iranian Revolution was regime change that had no outside involvement. You can also get regime change in the form of a coup d'état. But those aren't realistic right now in Iran as the events of the past few weeks proved. The Iranian people are obviously not clamoring to remove the Ayatollahs. And it's obvious there isn't enough dissent in the military ranks for a successful coup d'état given how the killing of all those generals by Israel had little effect.

The only realistic path to regime change in Iran right now is a ground invasion. Excuse me for dealing in reality rather than pie in sky delusions.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Trump could have taken all the leadership of Iran out, but didn't. Trump's position is that it's up to the people of Iran if they want regime change or not.

If the Iranian people still want a theocracy killing all their leaders wouldn't make a difference. The issue Israel and America have with Iran is about individuals (like was the case with Saddam or Gaddafi) but about ideology. Iran has already had leadership changes since the 1979 revolution and not much has changed in terms of their relationship with us and Israel.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

None of this was in your original claim. You made the simple claim that Iran won because there was no regime change.

No more, no less. That appeared to be your sole reasoning in the post I responded to and based on that Japan, and you it seemed, could claim having won WW2. Now, you're introducing other criteria. I am not arguing about your subsequent additions, just ridiculing the initial post. No more, no less.

Japan did have regime change in all but name. They became a puppet state of the United States. Iran is still independent in all ways not just in name as was the case for Japan. So once again terrible comparison.

 

[volfanhill]

 

[hndog609]

View attachment 751456

I'm waiting for him to try and figure out how to work "Yeah but look how Tom Brady turned out after being drafted in the 6th round." into the conversation. It would seem an impossible stretch but considering who it is...

 

[marcusluvsvols]

View attachment 751456

It is truly something to behold. To be wrong about pretty much everything...and such a zealot that one would willingly take on a dozen people day after day who universally dispute his ignorance and bring links, data, pictures, videos...

I have honestly started just ignoring the nonsense.--Insert " Ain't nobody got time for that " meme here-

 

[GroverCleveland]

Japan did have regime change in all but name. They became a puppet state of the United States. Iran is still independent in all ways not just in name as was the case for Japan. So once again terrible comparison.

No. Your original post was a terrible claim.

 

[rekinhavoc]

Exclusive — CIA Director Smacked Down Democrat Iran Objections

CIA Director John Ratcliffe ripped Democrats by comparing Trump's airstrike success in Iran to Obama's Iran nuclear deal.

www.breitbart.com