War in Ukraine

#87,026
#87,026
LouderVol said:
I think Russia was in trouble before this, and I don't think anything in this war is going to change it.

Russia was already facing a population decline. even when controlling for the war losses it has only gotten worse in the war. stealing land isn't going to fix that.

the resources, and any manufacturing/industry left, aren't going to be something Russia was radically missing.

they aren't gaining access to a port they didn't have before.

the war has made them dependent on other nations, considering one of those is China, they aren't great "allies" to be counting on for Russia's long term. I still believe the only winner of this war is China.

I really don't see what the net gain for Russia was by fighting the war the way they have.
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I dont know their tactics. I think both countries will suffer greatly if this war drags out. Putin has the advantage so negotiating peace will be tough and Ukraine may have to give up portions of Ukraine unless Europe and America decide to intervene that's the only way I see this ending, unless Putin just changes his mind which he would never do because he's always been KGB
 
#87,027
#87,027
dalton_vol said:
I dont know their tactics. I think both countries will suffer greatly if this war drags out. Putin has the advantage so negotiating peace will be tough and Ukraine may have to give up portions of Ukraine unless Europe and America decide to intervene that's the only way I see this ending, unless Putin just changes his mind which he would never do because he's always been KGB
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I think the peace talks would be a lot more successful if the only question was the change of territory. Putin wants a lot more than that.
 
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#87,028
#87,028
LouderVol said:
I really don't see what the net gain for Russia was by fighting the war the way they have.
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This is my big question too, all along. I don't understand why they wouldn't focus on prosperity. That seems like that is what would solve their population issues. I guess that when you're the emperor, you're just expected to act like the emperor sometimes. Being happy is just not enough.

I've never understood how they could feel threatened by anything.
 
#87,031
#87,031
Orange. said:
You're a liberal hawk, @BeardedVol, so I know that openDemocracy is right up your alley. Check this out. If it's too much for you (it shouldn't be), skip down to the subheads on "Gongos" (government NGOs), "Ukraine" and on to the end. Check it out, @LouderVol.


Note: NED = National Endowment for Democracy. I figure you know USAID. All acronyms are defined on first mention.
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Yeah, this is what Mike Benz has been talking about on several podcasts and how grotesquely jacked up this is.
NGO’s are really GO’s (USAID most prominently) because they receive govt money and they are the work around for doing nefarious s*** visa vie the CIA that can’t do it…you know, to make it all legal like.
 
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#87,032
#87,032
Trump is in a tough spot.
This is why he wanted to stay out of jail, was so he can be in power.

The more he complains about people dying every week, the more it comes off as -not having the stomach for war.

Putin HAD, reason to be upset with NATO expansion, but the invasion,,,then the ongoing shooting and killing during proposed peace times have shifted that completely.

For him to install a 3 day ceasefire all for the sake of Russian celebration is ballzy. He's testing Trump.

- Russia doesn't want peace
- Iran WILL have nuclear weapons when they get a real chance
- China will lie and bully until they are fully ready to invade Taiwan.

And All Countries want America destroyed.
 
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#87,033
#87,033

Ukrainian Journalist's Body is returned home from Russia 'Without Eyes Or A Brain' in a bag labelled 'unidentified male'​


The body of a Ukrainian journalist was returned home from captivity without her eyes or brain, according to an international investigation.

Viktoria Roshchyna's body was repatriated to Kyiv in February after she disappeared into an unofficial detention centre in Rostov, Russia, in August 2023.

But her corpse was handed back in a bag labelled 'unidentified male' as part of an exchange with Russia, until DNA tests revealed it belonged to the missing journalist.

When forensic experts opened up the body bag, they discovered the body had been tortured and mutilated. Her eyeballs, brain and part of her throat were removed.

Her head was shaved and her neck was bruised, and attached to her shin was a tag with her last name. Her feet were also covered in burn marks, according to officials familiar with an ongoing investigation by the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office.

Medical examiners later found Roshchyna had a broken rib and possible traces of electric shock. Ukrainian authorities only revealed that her body had been repatriated on April 24.

A DNA test confirmed that the body belonged to the 27-year-old journalist who had vanished into the brutal Russian prison system after being detained while reporting on claims that the country was operating a network of unofficial detention centers in August 2023.

Roshchyna is the first Ukrainian journalist to die in Russian captivity, and was first reported dead on October 2. But her father, Volodymyr Roshchyn, clung to the hopes that she was still alive until her body was returned and eventually identified.

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Viktoria Roshchyna's body was returned to Kyiv in February after she disappeared into an unofficial detention centre in occupied Ukraine in August 2023

1745983391743.png
Colleagues of Ukrainian journalist Victoria Roshchyna hold photographs of her during an event in honor of her memory at a makeshift memorial for fallen Ukrainian soldiers at Independence Square in Kyiv, on October 11, 2024

www.dailymail.co.uk

Ukrainian journo's body returned from Russia 'without eyes or brain'

Viktoria Roshchyna's body was returned to Kyiv on April 24 after she disappeared into an unofficial detention centre in occupied Ukraine in August 2023.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
#87,034
#87,034
Franklin Pierce said:

Ukrainian Journalist's Body is returned home from Russia 'Without Eyes Or A Brain' in a bag labelled 'unidentified male'​


The body of a Ukrainian journalist was returned home from captivity without her eyes or brain, according to an international investigation.

Viktoria Roshchyna's body was repatriated to Kyiv in February after she disappeared into an unofficial detention centre in Rostov, Russia, in August 2023.

But her corpse was handed back in a bag labelled 'unidentified male' as part of an exchange with Russia, until DNA tests revealed it belonged to the missing journalist.

When forensic experts opened up the body bag, they discovered the body had been tortured and mutilated. Her eyeballs, brain and part of her throat were removed.

Her head was shaved and her neck was bruised, and attached to her shin was a tag with her last name. Her feet were also covered in burn marks, according to officials familiar with an ongoing investigation by the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office.

Medical examiners later found Roshchyna had a broken rib and possible traces of electric shock. Ukrainian authorities only revealed that her body had been repatriated on April 24.

A DNA test confirmed that the body belonged to the 27-year-old journalist who had vanished into the brutal Russian prison system after being detained while reporting on claims that the country was operating a network of unofficial detention centers in August 2023.

Roshchyna is the first Ukrainian journalist to die in Russian captivity, and was first reported dead on October 2. But her father, Volodymyr Roshchyn, clung to the hopes that she was still alive until her body was returned and eventually identified.

View attachment 739042
Viktoria Roshchyna's body was returned to Kyiv in February after she disappeared into an unofficial detention centre in occupied Ukraine in August 2023

View attachment 739043
Colleagues of Ukrainian journalist Victoria Roshchyna hold photographs of her during an event in honor of her memory at a makeshift memorial for fallen Ukrainian soldiers at Independence Square in Kyiv, on October 11, 2024

www.dailymail.co.uk

Ukrainian journo's body returned from Russia 'without eyes or brain'

Viktoria Roshchyna's body was returned to Kyiv on April 24 after she disappeared into an unofficial detention centre in occupied Ukraine in August 2023.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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I guess she got to the bottom of the case.
 
#87,035
#87,035
Gpwo1SbWgAAn0gM
 
#87,038
#87,038
LouderVol said:
couldn't find what this agreement actually is. got to say the "Ukraine Reconstruction fund" doesn't sound like winning to me.
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Can you give us details about the "Ukraine Reconstruction Fund"?

From the little detail in the article, it sounds like the hope is that:

...this economic partnership positions our two countries to work collaboratively and invest together to ensure that our mutual assets, talents, and capabilities can accelerate Ukraine’s economic recovery.
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Thus providing economic US interests in Ukraine as deterrent to Russian aggression that is asset-based and civilian populated, as opposed to military-stationed, and thus less likely to be a continued accelerant to Russia.

Thus, its intent seems to be to signal:

...clearly to Russia that the Trump administration is committed to a peace process centered on a free, sovereign, and prosperous Ukraine over the long term.
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Just as many of us have been claiming about the agreement for months.
 
#87,039
#87,039
Orange_Crush said:
Can you give us details about the "Ukraine Reconstruction Fund"?

From the little detail in the article, it sounds like the hope is that:



Thus providing economic US interests in Ukraine as deterrent to Russian aggression that is asset-based and civilian populated, as opposed to military-stationed, and thus less likely to be a continued accelerant to Russia.

Thus, its intent seems to be to signal:



Just as many of us have been claiming about the agreement for months.
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my very first line says I couldn't find any more on it.

to me it sounds like the freedom for oil in Iraq, or democracy for poppy in Afghanistan. Trump is just more open about it. and I don't consider that winning to have that type of economic ties that pulls us into conflict.
 
#87,041
#87,041
LouderVol said:
my very first line says I couldn't find any more on it.

to me it sounds like the freedom for oil in Iraq, or democracy for poppy in Afghanistan. Trump is just more open about it. and I don't consider that winning to have that type of economic ties that pulls us into conflict.
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Well, that was my point, considering the very next thought that followed.

LouderVol said:
couldn't find what this agreement actually is. got to say the "Ukraine Reconstruction fund" doesn't sound like winning to me.
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As opposed to trying to understand it, you just made a judgment from ignorance.

Here's a little more detail:


Purpose: The fund collects profits from US-backed investment projects in Ukraine’s natural resources, such as aluminum, graphite, oil, and natural gas, to finance rebuilding efforts.

US Priority: The US has first claim on profits transferred into the fund, ensuring American investments are prioritized.

Aid Terms: Only future US military assistance counts toward contributions to the fund, with no repayment required for prior aid provided since Russia’s invasion began in 2022.
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It sounds like previous debts are being forgiven. Ukraine retains ownership of their soil, subsoil, mineral, elements, etc. The US and Ukraine will jointly invest in a fund to build out infrastructure to capitalize on those assets, and the US will be first to be paid from their profits.

Again, everything sounds eerily like major US civilian and economic interests in the country that would be a deterrent to more Russian aggression, without putting US/NATO military at Russia's doorstep and escalating the situation.

As such, it's a brilliant plan to try to end this thing with less chance of escalation. And now with US interests to be protected, Ukraine has some leverage in negotiations that they didn't have before.
 
#87,043
#87,043
Orange_Crush said:
Well, that was my point, considering the very next thought that followed.



As opposed to trying to understand it, you just made a judgment from ignorance.

Here's a little more detail:



It sounds like previous debts are being forgiven. Ukraine retains ownership of their soil, subsoil, mineral, elements, etc. The US and Ukraine will jointly invest in a fund to build out infrastructure to capitalize on those assets, and the US will be first to be paid from their profits.

Again, everything sounds eerily like major US civilian and economic interests in the country that would be a deterrent to more Russian aggression, without putting US/NATO military at Russia's doorstep and escalating the situation.

As such, it's a brilliant plan to try to end this thing with less chance of escalation. And now with US interests to be protected, Ukraine has some leverage in negotiations that they didn't have before.
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idk, it sounds like my assumption was correct. its another long term boondoggle.

It sounds like these are economic deals, but only our future military aid will count to it? so its going to be a match program with the US getting the profit? we give them 100 million in arms, Ukraine has to spend 100 million on some project, and the future profits are given back to the US?

not sure how we are going to enforce them spending their own money. seems like if they don't have money to defend themselves, they won't have money to invest in other items. not sure why anyone else would invest if the US is always going to be taking from the top.
 
#87,044
#87,044
LouderVol said:
idk, it sounds like my assumption was correct. its another long term boondoggle.

It sounds like these are economic deals, but only our future military aid will count to it? so its going to be a match program with the US getting the profit? we give them 100 million in arms, Ukraine has to spend 100 million on some project, and the future profits are given back to the US?

not sure how we are going to enforce them spending their own money. seems like if they don't have money to defend themselves, they won't have money to invest in other items. not sure why anyone else would invest if the US is always going to be taking from the top.
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It's made even worse for both as it provides no real security guarantees for Ukraine, and the mineral reserves are not proven, and based off of Soviet-era surveys.
 
#87,045
#87,045
LouderVol said:
idk, it sounds like my assumption was correct. its another long term boondoggle.

It sounds like these are economic deals, but only our future military aid will count to it? so its going to be a match program with the US getting the profit? we give them 100 million in arms, Ukraine has to spend 100 million on some project, and the future profits are given back to the US?

not sure how we are going to enforce them spending their own money. seems like if they don't have money to defend themselves, they won't have money to invest in other items. not sure why anyone else would invest if the US is always going to be taking from the top.
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That's not what I saw. US and Ukraine jointly and equally invest $$$ into a fund that pays for mines, refinement facilities, etc. (I suspect it's also written in there that a certain % of this will be owned/operated/manned by US companies.) That would be US economic interests that Russia shouldn't eff with. If there are indeed US corps/people on the ground there, that's another US interest that Russia doesn't need to eff with.

I've always suspected that this agreement was much less about the US getting money (back), and much more about installing non-military deterrents in the region. It sounds like everyone involved is blatantly stating that this is the case--from US Treasury's release to Ukraine's releases. They're literally stating that this is a message to Russia that the US is invested in Ukraine's ongoing prosperity, peace and stability.



“Thanks to President Trump’s tireless efforts to secure a lasting peace, I am glad to announce the signing of today’s historic economic partnership agreement between the United States and Ukraine establishing the United States-Ukraine Reconstruction Investment Fund,” said U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Scott Bessent. “As the President has said, the United States is committed to helping facilitate the end of this cruel and senseless war. This agreement signals clearly to Russia that the Trump Administration is committed to a peace process centered on a free, sovereign, and prosperous Ukraine over the long term. President Trump envisioned this partnership between the American people and the Ukrainian people to show both sides’ commitment to lasting peace and prosperity in Ukraine. And to be clear, no state or person who financed or supplied the Russian war machine will be allowed to benefit from the reconstruction of Ukraine.”
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#87,046
#87,046
BeardedVol said:
It's made even worse for both as it provides no real security guarantees for Ukraine, and the mineral reserves are not proven, and based off of Soviet-era surveys.
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it also requires a long term investment. I doubt any of these are waiting on the cessation of hostilities for the US to start seeing the profits. it will take years for anything to actually start, and then most places are profitable the first couple years. so our profitt is always going to lag behind our military aid tying us down for longer.
 
#87,047
#87,047
LouderVol said:
it also requires a long term investment. I doubt any of these are waiting on the cessation of hostilities for the US to start seeing the profits. it will take years for anything to actually start, and then most places are profitable the first couple years. so our profitt is always going to lag behind our military aid tying us down for longer.
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What if the US motives behind this aren't primarily to make a profit?
 
#87,049
#87,049
LouderVol said:
so just straight back to accepting nation building as the intended goal?
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I think more so putting American interests on the ground to try to end the war and prevent future aggression. Sounds like the desire is also to draw European investments to put more global, non-military assets there to help in the prevention. They seemingly believe that it'll be far less inflammatory to Russia than US military guarantees or NATO membership for Ukraine.
 
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#87,050
#87,050
LouderVol said:
it also requires a long term investment. I doubt any of these are waiting on the cessation of hostilities for the US to start seeing the profits. it will take years for anything to actually start, and then most places are profitable the first couple years. so our profitt is always going to lag behind our military aid tying us down for longer.
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The long term investment could be entirely moot if the reserves don't pan out. Even if they do exist, if they are not at a significant quantity or accessible at a cost that makes it even feasible to develop, then what happens to the negative equity in the fund?

This looks like just another face-saving deal for Trump to champion a "win" while doing exactly what we were doing before, providing military assistance to Ukraine.
 
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