War in Ukraine

[LouderVol]

Why do you keep acting as if a coup in Russia is not the next step after this coup in Ukraine? We had the chance to bring post-Soviet Russia into the fold just as we did with post-Nazi Germany. But the MIC didn't see a lot of profits in that.

ugh, cause we haven't done it in 30+ years.

this is just Russia manufacturing things to be afraid of to keep their population in line. Its funny how you can spot our government doing this in our country, but you can't recognize it in Russia.

 

[Orange.]

yeah, I didn't find anything particularly relevant in it.

as with most things you present it was completely one sided and pretends like the American actors were the only ones making decisions. as part of some scheme.

I am willing to bet you haven't looked into how those few Russians that worked with HIID , and got rich, ended up backing Putin and becoming some of his oligarch?

not even sure how that reference to Soros was particularly relevant either as a defense of Putin. Nazis also came into power in Germany due to communism, and other forms of fascism, being rejected creating a vacuum. I know its too fine of a point for you to understand but there is a difference between Nazis (jew haters) and fascists (corportists).

I'm not defending Putin. You guys are like robots.

The article explicitly thematizes the cooperation of Russian actors and the CIA boys, the IMF, the entity that runs Harvard's endowment (worth 61 billion at last count), Soros, the Clinton administration, and Western financiers.

I said that by continually breaking your word to Russia, backstabbing Yeltsin and humiliating post-Soviet Russia, and pillaging and destablilizing the post-Soviet government -- that stood in favor of democracy and liberal economics and that wanted to be a part of Europe -- that is how you get Putin.


Do any of you bruhs have the power and freedom of intellectual to see a question from both or better many sides?

 

[Orange.]

ugh, cause we haven't done it in 30+ years.

this is just Russia manufacturing things to be afraid of to keep their population in line. Its funny how you can spot our government doing this in our country, but you can't recognize it in Russia.

This is not Russia "manufacturing things." There is actual history and context.

Its funny how you can spot our government doing this in our country [and abroad]

Can you? You've never uttered a peep about it. Go on.

 

[LouderVol]

I'm not defending Putin. You guys are like robots.

The article explicitly thematizes the cooperation of Russian actors and the CIA boys, the IMF, the entity that runs Harvard's endowment (worth 61 billion at last count), Soros, the Clinton administration, and Western financiers.

I said that by continually breaking your word to Russia, backstabbing Yeltsin and humiliating post-Soviet Russia, and pillaging and destablilizing the post-Soviet government -- that stood in favor of democracy and liberal economics and that wanted to be a part of Europe -- that is how you get Putin.


Do any of you bruhs have the power and freedom of intellectual to see a question from both or better many sides?

do you? What have you questioned from the Russian narrative?

I did question the US propaganda side of it. I didn't deny our interests in the HIID and the movements, I just pointed out how naive it is to assume we were the only ones unduly influencing the "recovery" of Russia. The Russian actors went beyond that brief period of history.

I certainly haven't seen a break down, because I doubt it exists anywhere outside of Langley, but I would imagine its a pretty equal split on the number of the Russian oligarchs who got rich in that scheme that got purged by Putin vs those that crawled into bed with him. Those oligarchs who supported Putin worked with the HIID just as much as the HIID worked with them.

its pretty easy to tell that the Russians had just as much of an impact on Russia's economic struggles as any US involvement, because their problems lasted far longer than the 90s, and many of them exist today. I doubt you want to argue Putin and his oligarchs were played so badly by the CIA that the plot is still effective 20+ years after it ended, and with all the changes Putin has made.

and fwiw, I don't think there is any way Russia was ever going to remove the vestiges of the USSR and come out with a great economy. US actions or not. the dissolution of the USSR would have been 1000x worse than Covid for disrupting every part of the Russian bloc economy as it had to completely reorganize EVERYTHING if they didn't want to remain communist.

 

[LouderVol]

This is not Russia "manufacturing things." There is actual history and context.


Can you? You've never uttered a peep about it. Go on.

actual history to the US overthrowing the Russian government? as you put it....go on. I am intrigued by this new avenue of history.

because the mainline history says under NATO Russia hasn't been attacked once by any of its 16-21st century western enemies who took turns attacking them every ~30 years.

If Russia ever had anything to fear from NATO taking over it would have been in '91/'92. the fact that they didn't shows NATO was never a threat to Russia as the aggressor.

you need me to point out examples of our government manufacturing things to be afraid of to maintain their power? Just in my "paying attention" lifetime, there was WMDs, islamic terrorists in multiple countries, still being used today, Covid, Obama and Trump, and then Trump again now, Russia now. any number of "recessions" and "too big to fail", global warming/climate change.

its THE most used tool in government tool box. every government, not just ours. and it goes beyond governments into most organized groups with some sort of rival or thing that needs to be "fixed".

 

[LSU-SIU]

If Russia ever had anything to fear from NATO taking over it would have been in '91/'92. the fact that they didn't shows NATO was never a threat to Russia as the aggressor.

NATO had not expanded in 1991, half the countries weren't even in NATO. I would say the last 30 years has proven otherwise, the West and NATO did have to go to mission creep and use the pawn scam otherwise tactical nuke time. Time is up on Europe and NATO... I would say things have been boring until now.

You know who NATO needs to worry about? NATO.

The ones that move quickly might be able to survive.
Vucic says Serbia, Hungary are moving towards military alliance

 

[BeardedVol]

Why do you keep acting as if a coup in Russia is not the next step after this coup in Ukraine? We had the chance to bring post-Soviet Russia into the fold just as we did with post-Nazi Germany. But the MIC didn't see a lot of profits in that.

Is Putin planning on fleeing Russia for China, forcing the Duma to vote him out of office the way the Rada voted out Yanukovych after he absconded to Russia?

 

[Orange.]

I did question the US propaganda side of it. I didn't deny our interests in the HIID and the movements, I just pointed out how naive it is to assume we were the only ones unduly influencing the "recovery" of Russia. The Russian actors went beyond that brief period of history.

I certainly haven't seen a break down, because I doubt it exists anywhere outside of Langley, but I would imagine its a pretty equal split on the number of the Russian oligarchs who got rich in that scheme that got purged by Putin vs those that crawled into bed with him. Those oligarchs who supported Putin worked with the HIID just as much as the HIID worked with them.

I am NOT defending the Russian or the American oligarchs who stole everything but the kitchen sink, utterly disgracing the idea of "openness to the West" among the Russian people, who were bludgeoned and provoked into wanting a strong leader to stop the chaos and disintegration and inflation. It was an unlivable situation. The Russian people thought they would be brought into the Western fold. The Americans who sold the idea of sudden absolute and across the board (corrupt) privatization to the Yeltsin's people themselves called it "shock therapy" for Russia. The pro-shock contingent in the US administration won out over saner people who advocated a more moderately paced transition-- with US support along the lines of what we did for Germany after WWII. I think it was one of the great US foreign policy disasters of recent times. You won't find anyone more anti-Soviet people than me.

Cui bono? I would suggest the eternal war party, including the CIA, military brass, and the MIC. If you recall, the end of communism in Russia was near-universally celebrated as "the end of the Cold War." And there was talk of a "peace dividend," that is, a big reduction in deficits by scaling back military spending because the face off with Russia was finally concluded. We had "won," and the Russian people thought they too had "won" because they were finally to live Peter the Great's dream of being part of Europe. This moment we are discussing is hardly the complete train of abuses and lies and sabotaging of the post Cold War era. It started with the first Bush and has carried through to this day. But major inflection point was Clinton's doing.

Some of the expelled Russian oligarchs were provided asylum in the US, according to something I read last night, but I haven't verified that.

I did question the US propaganda side of it. I didn't deny our interests in the HIID and the movements.

I must have missed you questioning the US propaganda. I suppose you mean "participation," and in the case I see that you did that.

I think the "the HIID and the movements" were very much against the interests of the American people.

its pretty easy to tell that the Russians had just as much of an impact on Russia's economic struggles as any US involvement, because their problems lasted far longer than the 90s, and many of them exist today.

We can only discuss one instance at a time. I never said Russians had no role in the "shock therapy" plundering. I think that that was very much against the interests of the Russian people, who swung from elation at the opening to the West to demanding a strong arm to end the chaos, super-Weimar inflation, and looting. We can say that they got more than they bargained for. But I can also see why Putin was a hero to his people for stopping the bleeding. It is underestimated how that low point of catastrophe when Putin assumed power formed the Russian people's baseline for evaluating Putin's performance.

and fwiw, I don't think there is any way Russia was ever going to remove the vestiges of the USSR and come out with a great economy.

US actions or not. the dissolution of the USSR would have been 1000x worse than Covid for disrupting every part of the Russian bloc economy as it had to completely reorganize EVERYTHING if they didn't want to remain communist.

Russia is not a communist country now. Just in case you intended to say that. I don't think you did.

It would have been a hellva task. Prolly taken decades, but would likely be done by now. What was called the Ostpolitik in West Germany and united Germany after would a better model. Of course we've blown up the pipelines now. But the war party (encompassing both US political parties) fought Ostpolitik tooth and nail. Maybe one harm or "benefit" of this present ruckus has been to divide the German people from the intention of repproachment with their historical Russian enemies. But maybe it is just a phase. Bringing Russia into the Western fold might well have separated them from China more than a little. And if it could be made to work, it would seem to pay dividends for both of in north Africa.

Finally, how perfect does Russia have to be if we welcomed Turkey into NATO?

Off the wall, but interesting to think about. At Yalta Churchill promised Russia a "much better warm weather port" after the war, perhaps with a guilty conscience for doing everything he could to stall in the West and let Russia handle the greatest burden of the war for years. Churchill suggested the Dardanelles! Stalin said, then you take Greece.

 

[Orange.]

Is Putin planning on fleeing Russia for China, forcing the Duma to vote him out of office the way the Rada voted out Yanukovych after he absconded to Russia?

Victoria Nuand? Of "Fock Europe" fame. When the US money got right, Europe sure was quick to forget that they were played. Germany worst of all. Sorry about your pipeline.

In answer to your question, IDK.

Unfortunately (if you ever read the NYT article I posted a couple of days ago) it is now admitted that US media propaganda has lied to the American people continually about the US involvement in the war in Ukraine, from planning ops from the very start, in addition to equipment and training and the intelligence that made everything every Ukrainian win possible. Even putting US boots on the ground at the front in Crimea early on. The Brits just admitted this about themselves, too, but the Brits lied again about the US doing the same thing. I guess they didn't get the memo that we came (partially) clean in time. And I myself hardly doubt that US contingency plans running a war in response to the (correctly) expected Russian response to the US continual provocation, including the the coup in Kiev, were already in the bank on our side at that time. I think we are still being lied to about a lot by our color revolution at home media. I don't think the "unprovoked invasion" (and notice the repetition and ubiquity of the question-begging phrase in US propaganda) was unprovoked.

I think Putin was telling the truth that Ukraine was the red line, and I hardly think we doubted that. Now Putin has also thrown a lot of spaghetti and against the wall also, for sure. But Putin is in no way a bigger liar than Biden's handlers. Which is a back-handed "compliment," if there was one. Damning by faint praise. lol.

I think one terrible casualty of this war is that the Russian people (not the government) -- who have been told the truth by their media that this was a US-directed proxy war from the start -- may be a long time in not hating the US for the horrors their sons have suffered at the hands of the Americans. Another reason I point to the long train of abuses and US provocation to led us to this point.

The Russian people are in a very difficult situation. And how many governments have we overthrown in the last 50 years? Of course if we gain control of their media many may believe most anything we tell them. But there will still be the war dead and injured (that too many here revel in) that won't be easily forgotten or forgiven. I feel bad for the Ukrainians and the Russian people. And I think this was all needless.

 

[BeardedVol]

Victoria Nuand? Of "Fock Europe" fame. When the US money got right, Europe sure was quick to forget that they were played.

In answer to your question, IDK.

Unfortunately (if you ever read the NYT article I posted a couple of days ago) it is now admitted that US media propaganda has lied to the American people continually about the US involvement in the war in Ukraine, from planning ops from the very start, in addition to equipment and training and intelligence, and even putting boots on the ground at the front in Crimea early on. The Brits just admitted this about themselves, too, but lied again about the US doing so. I guess they didn't get the memo that we came (partially) clean. And I myself hardly doubt that US contingency plans for this Russian response to the US continual provocation, including the the coup in Kiev, were already in the bank on our side at that time. I think we are still being lied about a lot by the color revolution at home. I don't think the "unprovoked invasion" (and notice the question-begging repetition and ubiquity of the phrase in US propaganda) was unprovoked.

I think Putin was telling the truth that Ukraine was the red line, and I hardly think we doubted that. Now Putin has also thrown a lot of spaghetti and against the wall also, for sure.

I think one terrible casualty of this war is that the Russian people (not the government) -- who have been told the truth by their media that this was a US-directed proxy war from the start -- may be a long time in not hating the US for the horrors their sons have suffered at the hands of the Americans. Another reason I point to the long train of abuses and US provocation to led us to this point.

They are in a very difficult situation and how many governments have we overthrown in the last 50 years? Of course if we gain control of their media they may believe anything. I feel bad for the Ukrainians and the Russians. And I think this was all needless.

Lol, Victoria Nuland saying f_ck Europe in a call where she discussed an offer that Yanukovych made to the opposition (which they'd already declined) = "coup"?

Ukraine’s embattled president offers PM post to opposition

Protesters to be considered ‘extremists’ if they refuse to leave central Kiev

www.irishtimes.com

Maybe you should go back and familiarize yourself with how "coups" actually work.

Coup d’etat | Definition, Examples, & Facts | Britannica

Coup d’etat, the sudden, violent overthrow of an existing government by a small group. Unlike a revolution, in which large numbers of people work for basic social, economic, and political change, a coup is a change in power from the top that merely results in the replacement of leading...

www.britannica.com

Hint: They don't end with an election.

2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Orange.]

Maybe you should go back and familiarize yourself with how "coups" actually work....

Hint: They don't end with an election.
View attachment 732562

2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sometimes they do.

The CIA specializes, among other things, in ginning up mass protests, social media manipulation, and false flag actions.

And surely you don't think it was an accident later that Zelensky was not a President but played one on TV for an oligarch in preparation for an election, do you? I don't think he even spoke Ukrainian.

 

[BeardedVol]

Sometimes they do.

The CIA specializes, among other things, in ginning up mass protests and social media manipulation and false flag actions.

And surely you don't think it was an accident later that Zelensky was not a President but played one on TV for an oligarch in preparation for an election, do you?

So your (conspiracy) theory, is that Nuland conducted a "coup" via a combination of handing out cookies to protesters, and badmouthing the EU on a phone call, where she discussed Yanukovych trying to buy off the opposition, and none of those people mentioned even stood in the 2014 election so that she could secretly place Zelensky in a position to be elected 5 years later?

This is really what you believe?

 

[Orange.]

So your (conspiracy) theory, is that Nuland conducted a "coup" via a combination of handing out cookies to protesters, and badmouthing the EU on a phone call, where she discussed Yanukovych trying to buy off the opposition, and none of those people mentioned even stood in the 2014 election so that she could secretly place Zelensky in a position to be elected 5 years later?

This is really what you believe?

I don't have a "conspiracy theory."

The phrase "conspiracy theory" in your propagandistic sense is a term used in misinformation campaigns intended to shame people into silence and mindless conformity. But abstaining from endorsing a teaching and rather questioning that belief -- doubting, considering and weighing possible alternative explanations -- comparing rival hypotheses -- is an essential moment is all thought.

Thinking is completely different in type from the practice of taking up and mimicking a belief expressed and repeated by "authorities" without interrogating it for oneself. The latter most closely resembles religious fundamentalism and cults.

 

[BeardedVol]

I don't have a "conspiracy theory."

The phrase "conspiracy theory" in your propagandistic sense is a term used in misinformation campaigns intended to shame people into silence and mindless conformity. But abstaining from endorsing a teaching and rather questioning that belief -- doubting, considering and weighing possible alternative explanations -- comparing rival hypotheses -- is an essential moment is all thought.

Thinking is completely different in type from the practice of taking up and mimicking a belief expressed and repeated by "authorities" without interrogating it for oneself. The latter most closely resembles religious fundamentalism.

So you have proof that Nuland's plan all along was to engineer a scenario where Zelensky would beat Poroshenko in an election 5 years after the Maidan revolution?

Please do share.

 

[BeardedVol]

I’m confused. Why would Trump do that to his puppet master?

Lol where's Russia on the list?

Trump tariff chart: Full list of countries hit with 'reciprocal' tariffs

President Donald Trump, speaking at the White House, held up a chart showing proposed import taxes: 34 percent on China, 20 percent on the EU, among others.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Vol737]

he's not a head of state

I’d be disappointed if Kid Rock showed up any other way.

 

[volbound1700]

Lol where's Russia on the list?

Trump tariff chart: Full list of countries hit with 'reciprocal' tariffs

President Donald Trump, speaking at the White House, held up a chart showing proposed import taxes: 34 percent on China, 20 percent on the EU, among others.

www.newsweek.com

We are boycotting Russia. Can't tariff someone that we are boycotting.

 

[BeardedVol]

We are boycotting Russia. Can't tariff someone that we are boycotting.

Russia

ustr.gov

 

[Orange.]

You're a liberal hawk, @BeardedVol, so I know that openDemocracy is right up your alley. Check this out. If it's too much for you (it shouldn't be), skip down to the subheads on "Gongos" (government NGOs), "Ukraine" and on to the end. Check it out, @LouderVol.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/colour_revolutions_3196jsp/

Note: NED = National Endowment for Democracy. I figure you know USAID. All acronyms are defined on first mention.

 

[Orange.]

Lol where's Russia on the list?

Trump tariff chart: Full list of countries hit with 'reciprocal' tariffs

President Donald Trump, speaking at the White House, held up a chart showing proposed import taxes: 34 percent on China, 20 percent on the EU, among others.

www.newsweek.com

Wouldn't that be at some late stage of the present negotiations, if we can get far enough along to try to de-toxify or at least quasi-normalize our relationship with Russia as much as possible? Also it is rational to hold such things in abeyance as leverage. You can't start with building the roof.

Also I assume that, unless you're completely in a TDS or party-line "talking point" bubble, you know the end of the tariff policy in total is to advance from initally "matching" the tariffs of other countries to next working together with them to agree to even-handed reciprocal tariffs. A common form of misinformation is to intentionally mislead the public into believing that this first and necessary step or beginning phase is an end in itself. Without our first matching their tariffs, countries with lopsided trade policies would just laugh and point.

 

[vol66]

I’ll be the first to admit, I may not be all that well read, might not be the smartest tool in the shed. Last month, or so, we tried to negotiate a cease fire. Russia attacked Ukraine. This week, news of 160,000 new conscripts that are not gonna actually fight in Ukraine, I guess it’s a peace keeping mission. Today, POTUS announced tariffs in the Arctic on islands occupied by penguins and did not announce tariffs on Russia or North Korea…to name a couple, seems a little odd, no? Japan, South Korea and China get on the same page for once, not like they are best buddies.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I’ll be the first to admit, I may not be all that well read, might not be the smartest tool in the shed. Last month, or so, we tried to negotiate a cease fire. Russia attacked Ukraine. This week, news of 160,000 new conscripts that are not gonna actually fight in Ukraine, I guess it’s a peace keeping mission. Today, POTUS announced tariffs in the Arctic on islands occupied by penguins and did not announce tariffs on Russia or North Korea…to name a couple, seems a little odd, no? Japan, South Korea and China get on the same page for once, not like they are best buddies.

Trump can either keep funding the war or get out. There really is no other good choices nor leverage or a hand play.

The war itself has been over for about 2+/- years... what happens now is just the details.

 

[LouderVol]

NATO had not expanded in 1991, half the countries weren't even in NATO. I would say the last 30 years has proven otherwise, the West and NATO did have to go to mission creep and use the pawn scam otherwise tactical nuke time. Time is up on Europe and NATO... I would say things have been boring until now.

You know who NATO needs to worry about? NATO.

The ones that move quickly might be able to survive.
Vucic says Serbia, Hungary are moving towards military alliance

NATO has been worrying about NATO. they haven't even looked at Russia. those other countries don't involve Russia. Seems like Russia needs to stay out of Poland, Czech, slovak, hungary, estonian, latvian, lithuanian, romanian, finn, and swedish business. as always you present it as a one sided problem.

they have been sitting back and minding their own business until Russia broke its word in a shared "understanding" with the US and Ukraine.

and lol at you bringing up tactical nukes and NATO when you have been adamant about NATO NOT using tactical nukes, but instead pointing out how Russia is the one that calls for the tactical use of nukes. you are just straight up projecting.

 

[LSU-SIU]

NATO has been worrying about NATO. they haven't even looked at Russia. those other countries don't involve Russia. Seems like Russia needs to stay out of Poland, Czech, slovak, hungary, estonian, latvian, lithuanian, romanian, finn, and swedish business. as always you present it as a one sided problem.

they have been sitting back and minding their own business until Russia broke its word in a shared "understanding" with the US and Ukraine.

and lol at you bringing up tactical nukes and NATO when you have been adamant about NATO NOT using tactical nukes, but instead pointing out how Russia is the one that calls for the tactical use of nukes. you are just straight up projecting.

You're right it is one sided because I have no idea what you are trying to say. There isn't a bunch of 3d chess going on.

 

[volbound1700]

View attachment 732607

Russia

ustr.gov

Not sure where you are getting that data. Biden administration boycott them. I know that my company can't buy from Russia (along with other nations like North Korea).