Trade Wars and Tariffs

[mrorange211]

The vast majority of the US are used to paying less for every day goods made overseas. Tariffs based on the theory that we can return manufacturing of those goods to the US is designed to benefit the US manufacturers, not the consumers.

Reality is, this is a massive tax on average Americans to benefit the owners.

Not necessarily agreeing, but to add something here, Buffett has stated that tariffs are basically an act of war.

 

[McDad]

However, if instead of tariffs we want to pass a law saying you can’t import anything here unless they pay at our minimum wage and manufacture by our osha safety standards then I’m good with that.

Want to discuss this concept separately.

What makes America wages and safety laws the gold standard? If wages, safety and employee benefits are the motivator, should America raise their standards up to Germany, or Switzerland's level?

 

[Orangeslice13]

You can modify the details however you wish. Doesn't matter to me. Either Sowell or Williams brought the concept to my awareness about 30 years ago. So today I pick your brain about it.

Wouldn't the person working for meager wages be choosing the best option of all their employment options just like you and I do?

My concern for their circumstances is secondary to my own.
Let’s say they have a fair working condition and a choice….they don’t, but we’re going to act as if they do…. Their situation and “choice” to sell themselves does harm to the people who would be working here. If I’m in charge my duty is too my people. And if free trade and fair competition is what we’re about then they have to play on the same field my people do in order to compete here.
And that’s just the first level of my concern once we beat this to death we can move on to environmental issues and impact

 

[Orangeslice13]

Want to discuss this concept separately.

What makes America wages and safety laws the gold standard? If wages, safety and employee benefits are the motivator, should America raise their standards up to Germany, or Switzerland's level?

It’s our playing field. We saddled ourselves with these rules for one reason or another. If you want to compete here these are the rules you must play by.
Now if you want to talk about relaxing those rules, we can but that doesn’t change anything about the concept of a level playing field

Edit: that would be the call of Germany or the Swiss. It’s their playing field so they make those rules

 

[McDad]

My concern for their circumstances is secondary to my own.
Let’s say they have a fair working condition and a choice….they don’t, but we’re going to act as if they do…. Their situation and “choice” to sell themselves does harm to the people who would be working here. If I’m in charge my duty is too my people. And if free trade and fair competition is what we’re about then they have to play on the same field my people do in order to compete here.
And that’s just the first level of my concern once we beat this to death we can move on to environmental issues and impact

Why are we acting as if they have a choice when they do not?

If the factory pays more and generally has better conditions, isn't that better for those people?

 

[McDad]

It’s our playing field. We saddled ourselves with these rules for one reason or another. If you want to compete here these are the rules you must play by.
Now if you want to talk about relaxing those rules, we can but that doesn’t change anything about the concept of a level playing field

To continue that concept forward, in order to export our goods to Germany and Switzerland, we should rise to their level of employee compensation, benefits, and safety?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Why are we acting as if they have a choice when they do not?

If the factory pays more and generally has better conditions, isn't that better for those people?

For the sake of this debate.


I’m not willing to stipulate to the supposed better conditions of the factory. In many cases the factories have a much higher chance of mortality and those people are discarded as trash

 

[Orangeslice13]

To continue that concept forward, in order to export our goods to Germany and Switzerland, we should rise to their level of employee compensation, benefits, and safety?

Again, that would be their decision and how they choose to compete. If that’s what they decide then we’d have a decision to make

 

[Orangeslice13]

@McDad
The state of Tennessee is a huge pain in the ass when it comes to licensing and regulatory compliance. I play by the rules. I also report every MFer I catch who isn’t

 

[jmacvols1]

Does it account for the loss in economic output caused by imposing the tariffs to begin with? Tariffs are highly disruptive to the economy.

what disruptions?



Peter St Onge, Ph.D.
@profstonge
40m

Consumer spending and incomes are soaring.

Fresh numbers say consumer spending hit 5.3% annualized — up from negative 3.3% in Biden’s last.

After-tax incomes are running 10.9% annualized.

Hard numbers for journalists furiously stabbing their voodoo dolls for a recession.



Roebling Capital Partners
@RoeblingCapital
·
39m
Personal income rose by $194.7 billion (0.8%) in February, disposable income increased by $191.6 billion (0.9%), and consumer spending grew by $87.8 billion (0.4%), with personal saving at $1.02 trillion and a saving rate of 4.6%.


========



leftist media is not happy while hoping for a recession & trying to talk down the stock market with "fear porn" (as some call it) about tariffs

 

[Ashevolle]

what disruptions?



Peter St Onge, Ph.D.
@profstonge
40m

Consumer spending and incomes are soaring.

Fresh numbers say consumer spending hit 5.3% annualized — up from negative 3.3% in Biden’s last.

After-tax incomes are running 10.9% annualized.

Hard numbers for journalists furiously stabbing their voodoo dolls for a recession.



Roebling Capital Partners
@RoeblingCapital
·
39m
Personal income rose by $194.7 billion (0.8%) in February, disposable income increased by $191.6 billion (0.9%), and consumer spending grew by $87.8 billion (0.4%), with personal saving at $1.02 trillion and a saving rate of 4.6%.


========



leftist media is not happy while hoping for a recession & trying to talk down the stock market

We shall see.... not expecting to understand how this will play out instantaneously.

Report: US Consumer Confidence Tumbled Again in March - RVBusiness - Breaking RV Industry News

NEW YORK – The Conference Board Consumer Confidence Index fell by 7.2 points in March to 92.9 (1985=100). The Present Situation Index — based on consumers' assessment of current business and labor market conditions — decreased 3.6 points to 134.5. The Expectations Index — based on consumers'...

rvbusiness.com

Rising prices, weak consumer spending spotlight ‘stagflation’ risk

Public- and private-sector economists have flagged inflation risks and marked down estimates for economic growth this year, warning of the potential harm from tariffs.

www.cfodive.com

 

[hog88]

@McDad
The state of Tennessee is a huge pain in the ass when it comes to licensing and regulatory compliance. I play by the rules. I also report every MFer I catch who isn’t

Better than most but a bigger PITA than many.

 

[hog88]

I know it's a pipe dream but the simplest and best solution is true free trade agreements. We don't tariff imports or subsidize our industry and neither do our trading partners.

 

[jmacvols1]

We shall see.... not expecting to understand how this will play out instantaneously.

Report: US Consumer Confidence Tumbled Again in March - RVBusiness - Breaking RV Industry News

NEW YORK – The Conference Board Consumer Confidence Index fell by 7.2 points in March to 92.9 (1985=100). The Present Situation Index — based on consumers' assessment of current business and labor market conditions — decreased 3.6 points to 134.5. The Expectations Index — based on consumers'...

rvbusiness.com

Rising prices, weak consumer spending spotlight ‘stagflation’ risk

Public- and private-sector economists have flagged inflation risks and marked down estimates for economic growth this year, warning of the potential harm from tariffs.

www.cfodive.com

seems the soft data (most likely being manipulated by leftist organizations) is not matching up with what is actually happening with hard data.

why is spending soaring if confidence is supposedly "tumbling".....leftist media trying to talk up a recession?

 

[n_huffhines]

Not necessarily agreeing, but to add something here, Buffett has stated that tariffs are basically an act of war.

The way Trump is doing it, it sure seems like it. The way he talks, his intent seems to be to hurt others and claim retaliation, instead of protecting America.

 

[n_huffhines]

The vast majority of the US are used to paying less for every day goods made overseas. Tariffs based on the theory that we can return manufacturing of those goods to the US is designed to benefit the US manufacturers, not the consumers.

Reality is, this is a massive tax on average Americans to benefit the owners.

The owners are the ones who want to outsource. It doesn't even benefit them, necessarily.

It benefits the very small group of people who end up with manufacturing jobs.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

The vast majority of the US are used to paying less for every day goods made overseas. Tariffs based on the theory that we can return manufacturing of those goods to the US is designed to benefit the US manufacturers, not the consumers.

Reality is, this is a massive tax on average Americans to benefit the owners.

Yeah but those pesky jobs that get created

 

[McDad]

For the sake of this debate.


I’m not willing to stipulate to the supposed better conditions of the factory. In many cases the factories have a much higher chance of mortality and those people are discarded as trash

Do the people working in those factories have choice...do they have agency over themselves and their labor?

 

[McDad]

Again, that would be their decision and how they choose to compete. If that’s what they decide then we’d have a decision to make

Would you anticipate Uncle Sam concedes to those countries and their demands or would America opt to cease exporting? Would American employers agree to give 20-30 days mandatory vacation to employees because that meets the standard in Ger, Swi, and Fra?

 

[BeardedVol]

The Art of the Deal™

How Trump Is Torpedoing Foreign Tourism To The US—Potentially For Years To Come, Say Analysts

Multi-front tariff wars, hardball immigration tactics and escalating imperialistic rhetoric are turning off international tourists, according to the latest travel data.

www.forbes.com

 

[CobbVol]

To continue that concept forward, in order to export our goods to Germany and Switzerland, we should rise to their level of employee compensation, benefits, and safety?

Are Germany and Switzerland superior to the US in those 3 areas?

 

[EasternVol]

Why does Noone complain when tariffs go against us, but cry when we want to do it.

Peter Noone? I don't think he comments much on international trade. People cry when we impose tariffs because it raises the price here of the tariffed goods or their replacements and that effect is easy to see. Seeing how other countries' tariffs affect our exports and employment levels is more difficult to see.

 

[Velo Vol]

Here is the first half of the answer I got. There are two more sections and a conclusion, lol. It often volunteers sources and you can always ask it for sources or why it's claiming something.

That excerpt is a pretty good summary, but specific "facts" all come from somewhere. So the Chat GPT is only good as where it came from.

 

[CobbVol]

I know it's a pipe dream but the simplest and best solution is true free trade agreements. We don't tariff imports or subsidize our industry and neither do our trading partners.

Free trade would be great. Getting to fair trade should be considered progress.

 

[whodeycin85]

First of all, we've never actually practiced free trade. We've always protected preferred industries. We protected steel and hurt all manufacturing reliant on steel. We **** ourselves with this stuff.

Second, trade is a big reason average Americans have so much purchasing power and the global economy is where it's at at this point and time. I just asked Chat GPT how much it would cost to make a TV entirely in the United States, and it said "take a $500 TV say, and add about $200-400 extra" and that was just to assemble components here. I couldn't get a decent answer on if all the components were made here, too.

So we cry about the death of the middle class. Maybe it is dead, I don't know. Means something different to everybody, I suppose. But I do know trade is a huge reason the "dead" middle class (and the poor) are able to consume so much. Imagine a middle class that has more manufacturing jobs, but everything is twice as expensive. Doesn't sound great. Do you want a factory job? I don't. I don't want that for my kids, either.

Whats wrong with factory jobs???