War in Ukraine

#86,551
#86,551
BeardedVol said:
Lol, none of which is affected by any county spending 2% of GDP or not on their own defense spending.

Nor does the US footing the bill for our own extracurricular NATO exercises alleviate our obligations under the cost-sharing agreement that is the NATO common budget.

As to your foray into the non sequitur...

View attachment 730348
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I’d like to spend 2% of my income on home security this year. Please send me 4% of my income off the books. Thanks. And I’ll need you to take care of my big ticket items on your own. Thanks again.
 
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#86,552
#86,552
Orange. said:
I’d like to spend 2% of my income on home security this year. Please send me 4% of my income off the books. Thanks. And I’ll need you to take care of my big ticket items on your own. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
thumbs-up-conspiracy.gif
 
#86,553
#86,553
BeardedVol said:
My position is that after the forced association of the USSR finally collapsed in 1991, that Russia has no claims to any of the countries that they formerly occupied and forced into that association.
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I agree. Once a former state has undertaken self governance, it now possesses sovereignty. Russia (or any other) has no claim to the newly-sovereigned country.
 
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#86,555
#86,555
hog88 said:
I bet he feels differently about the confederate states.
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Probably. Lots of people do. Voluntary joining should also mean voluntary leaving. In fact, the Federal government had to "court" the states to entice them to join. Civil war could have been avoided if they had continued that approach.
 
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#86,556
#86,556
BeardedVol said:
My position is that after the forced association of the USSR finally collapsed in 1991, that Russia has no claims to any of the countries that they formerly occupied and forced into that association.
Click to expand...
You like it that we lied to Russia repeatedly about not expanding NATO beyond Germany? That’s provocation and betrayal. You realize that NATO was an anti-communist alignment, not an anti-Russian race-baiting league, right? You think it was smart to sabotage glasnost?

Instead of realizing NATO’s stated goal and recognizing the end of the USSR, instead of bringing Russia into to West — like you approved when it involved the Nazis and Nazi allies — we lied. NATO aimed to push to the Russian border when it was no longer a Soviet state. It’s another US government program that refused to end; but its mission was over. Soviet communism was defeated. Try to keep up. And the real intention of the these NATO cheerleaders (as everyone knows) is to overthrow the non-Soviet government of Russia and install a puppet. It would be the grift to end all grifts to get hold of those riches.

NATO invents new ways every year to keep hiring and spending. It has propagandized people like you to wrongly make of the Russian people — not communism — as an implacable enemy. The Russian people (not the regime) that fought decisively as our allies against the Nazi regimes and whose own people have been readily welcomed into the fold.

Too many Americans have been conned into identifying Russians as communists or Soviets to keep the grift alive. Peter the Great, by the way (since you don’t appear to know) was the Russian leader who wanted to make Russia part of Europe. To emulate the West. A Westernizer. Not a communist.
 
#86,557
#86,557
Orange. said:
You like it that we lied to Russia repeatedly about not expanding NATO beyond Germany? That’s provocation and betrayal. You realize that NATO was an anti-communist alignment, not an anti-Russian race-baiting league, right? You think it was smart to sabotage glasnost?

Instead of realizing NATO’s stated goal and recognizing the end of the USSR, instead of bringing Russia into to West — like you approved when it involved the Nazis and Nazi allies — we lied. NATO aimed to push to the Russian border when it was no longer a Soviet state. It’s another US government program that refused to end; but its mission was over. Soviet communism was defeated. Try to keep up. And the real intention of the these NATO cheerleaders (as everyone knows) is to overthrow the non-Soviet government of Russia and install a puppet. It would be the grift to end all grifts to get hold of those riches.

NATO invents new ways every year to keep hiring and spending. It has propagandized people like you to wrongly make of the Russian people — not communism — as an implacable enemy. The Russian people (not the regime) that fought decisively as our allies against the Nazi regimes and whose own people have been readily welcomed into the fold.

Too many Americans have been conned into identifying Russians as communists or Soviets to keep the grift alive. Peter the Great, by the way (since you don’t appear to know) was the Russian leader who wanted to make Russia part of Europe. To emulate the West. A Westernizer. Not a communist.
Click to expand...

No it wasn't.
 
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#86,558
#86,558
Orange. said:
You like it that we lied to Russia repeatedly about not expanding NATO beyond Germany? That’s provocation and betrayal. You realize that NATO was an anti-communist alignment, not an anti-Russian race-baiting league, right? You think it was smart to sabotage glasnost?

Instead of realizing NATO’s stated goal and recognizing the end of the USSR, instead of bringing Russia into to West — like you approved when it involved the Nazis and Nazi allies — we lied. NATO aimed to push to the Russian border when it was no longer a Soviet state. It’s another US government program that refused to end; but its mission was over. Soviet communism was defeated. Try to keep up. And the real intention of the these NATO cheerleaders (as everyone knows) is to overthrow the non-Soviet government of Russia and install a puppet. It would be the grift to end all grifts to get hold of those riches.

NATO invents new ways every year to keep hiring and spending. It has propagandized people like you to wrongly make of the Russian people — not communism — as an implacable enemy. The Russian people (not the regime) that fought decisively as our allies against the Nazi regimes and whose own people have been readily welcomed into the fold.

Too many Americans have been conned into identifying Russians as communists or Soviets to keep the grift alive. Peter the Great, by the way (since you don’t appear to know) was the Russian leader who wanted to make Russia part of Europe. To emulate the West. A Westernizer. Not a communist.
Click to expand...
so much fear mongering and revisionism.

how is it betrayal? We had no written agreement, nothing to "betray".

and as you point out the entity that any VERBAL exchange was with, no longer existed when the Soviet Union fell, so it never would have carried over to Russia even if it had been valid.

we didn't lie, at least not in any manner that matters. and trying to invoke glasnost on America is laughable, that was an internal USSR strategy they specifically didn't practice with outside nations. again the USSR that no longer existed for Russia to emerge.

I have yet to see the west claim the Russian people as a problem. Their leadership is the enemy, and that has been claimed. that was why you saw for the longest time that the west denied Ukraine strikes into Russia.

and its funny you talk about people being duped into equating Russians as soviets. since Putin's whole war has been about denazifying a nation with a Jewish leader.
 
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#86,560
#86,560
BeardedVol said:
My position is that after the forced association of the USSR finally collapsed in 1991, that Russia has no claims to any of the countries that they formerly occupied and forced into that association.
Click to expand...
So you endorse the US repeatedly lying to Russia (not the Soviets) about the security guarantees and assurances we gave Russia as a condition for their permitting NATO in East Germany “and not one inch” further east?

Then why do you whine about the US conning Ukraine by lying about their security assurance when the nukes were removed? Same ploy.

You seem to have a perverse anf convenient sense of history. It’s the “official” NATO expansion propaganda line and acknowledges nothing before the Soviet coup. And nothing after the end of the Soviet regime.

Ukraine was communist by its own efforts before it was joined with the Soviets. Do you want to restore communism in Ukraine too?

Russia was our WWI ally and not communist before the Germans — our WWI enemy — initiated the (Soviet) coup in Russia by smuggling Lenin into Russia. That, in order to incapacitate our Eastern ally and end Germany’s Eastern front. Do you want to restore our Russian alliance? Why not?

I hope your narrow-window legalism doesn’t incite you want to restore the British empire to its 1917 boundaries?
 
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#86,563
#86,563
LouderVol said:
so much fear mongering and revisionism.

how is it betrayal? We had no written agreement, nothing to "betray".

and as you point out the entity that any VERBAL exchange was with, no longer existed when the Soviet Union fell, so it never would have carried over to Russia even if it had been valid.

we didn't lie, at least not in any manner that matters. and trying to invoke glasnost on America is laughable, that was an internal USSR strategy they specifically didn't practice with outside nations. again the USSR that no longer existed for Russia to emerge.

I have yet to see the west claim the Russian people as a problem. Their leadership is the enemy, and that has been claimed. that was why you saw for the longest time that the west denied Ukraine strikes into Russia.

and its funny you talk about people being duped into equating Russians as soviets. since Putin's whole war has been about denazifying a nation with a Jewish leader.
Click to expand...
The NATO propaganda line that aims to cover up a US coup in Russia and puppet in the Ukraine is the revisionism. Eisenhower’s warning about the CIA and MIC is history. So is the US surveillance state that would make Stasi blush. So are the U.S. color revolutions. So is US demolition of the gas pipeline. A huge opportunity to bring Russia into the West shat upon.

The post glasnost US strategy was all wrong and MIC/finance. Justifying NATO'S continued existence, spending, and grift. Have you considered what bringing Russia into the fold would have meant for the world. Or, conversely, for NATO? Or what it still might mean?

You and your bruhs hate Russians. The thread is full of your vitriol.

Zelensky is a puppet. There are Nazi militias in Ukraine. It’s not a contradiction. The Russians aren’t Soviet.
 
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#86,564
#86,564
Orange. said:
The NATO propaganda line that aims at a US coup and puppet in Russia is the revisionism. Eisenhower’s warning about the CIA and MIC is history. So is the surveillance state. So are the U.S. color revolutions. So is US demolition of the gas pipeline. A huge opportunity shat upon.

The lies were and are a problem. The post glasnost strategy was all wrong and MIC. Justifying continued existence, spending, and grift. Have you considered what bringing Russia into the fold would have meant for the world. Or, conversely, for NATO?

You and your bruhs hate Russians. The thread is full of your vitriol.

Zelensky is a puppet.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of post that should be studied in the future.
 
#86,565
#86,565
Britain led the West by the nose for more than three centuries to prevent Russia from having a warm water port. It’s been a disaster for Europe and the world. To what end?

The British empire no longer exists and we’re still at it.
 
#86,566
#86,566
Sometimes I try to "zoom out" and look at Ukraine more in terms of a thousand-year view. When I do that? It's like... Russia is the meniscus in your knee. It's a shock absorber, the space in between Europe and Asia - geographically part of both, geopolitically maybe part of neither - where a ton of friction and conflict happen.

The core of the meniscus is, well pick a name. Muscovy, the Kievan Rus, the Rurikids. But it's been there for 1,000+ years, so maybe it's a bit myopic and short term to think of it solely in terms of Putin Bad, Zelenskyy Good, even if that's pretty much true from a bunch of really solid perspectives. Russia would be insane *not* to look west, south and east like there are enemies at the gate. Historically, there pretty much always have been and it'll go on long after Putin and Zelenskyy and all of us are long dead.

The Crimean Khanate was a remnant of the Golden Horde; the Mongols invaded something like 700-800 years ago and stuck around in some capacity for a few centuries. Russia has had wars with the Ottomans (Russo-Turkish wars). They've had wars with Europe... France invaded, Germany invaded more recently, they've got centuries of history of war with Sweden.

Sometimes Russia's the aggressor, and they're not saints by any stretch of the imagination. See: the Circassian genocide, the mass deportation of Crimean Tatars, this war, and on and on. "Denazifaction" of Ukraine is a clear pretense to hanging onto the Russification of Ukraine. Which is what it's really about... keeping a buffer of vassal states insulating "real" Russia from the forces beyond it. Putin wants Ukraine to be a Russian puppet state, instead of a European one. The same way Crimea was an Ottoman puppet at one point, or Kazan was an alternating Russian-leaning or Mongol khanate. The long game seems like "keep the fight out in the yard and off my porch".
 
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#86,568
#86,568
ArmchairQB said:
Sometimes I try to "zoom out" and look at Ukraine more in terms of a thousand-year view. When I do that? It's like... Russia is the meniscus in your knee. It's a shock absorber, the space in between Europe and Asia - geographically part of both, geopolitically maybe part of neither - where a ton of friction and conflict happen.

The core of the meniscus is, well pick a name. Muscovy, the Kievan Rus, the Rurikids. But it's been there for 1,000+ years, so maybe it's a bit myopic and short term to think of it solely in terms of Putin Bad, Zelenskyy Good, even if that's pretty much true from a bunch of really solid perspectives. Russia would be insane *not* to look west, south and east like there are enemies at the gate. Historically, there pretty much always have been and it'll go on long after Putin and Zelenskyy and all of us are long dead.

The Crimean Khanate was a remnant of the Golden Horde; the Mongols invaded something like 700-800 years ago and stuck around in some capacity for a few centuries. Russia has had wars with the Ottomans (Russo-Turkish wars). They've had wars with Europe... France invaded, Germany invaded more recently, they've got centuries of history of war with Sweden.

Sometimes Russia's the aggressor, and they're not saints by any stretch of the imagination. See: the Circassian genocide, the mass deportation of Crimean Tatars, this war, and on and on. "Denazifaction" of Ukraine is a clear pretense to hanging onto the Russification of Ukraine. Which is what it's really about... keeping a buffer of vassal states insulating "real" Russia from the forces beyond it. Putin wants Ukraine to be a Russian puppet state, instead of a European one. The same way Crimea was an Ottoman puppet at one point, or Kazan was an alternating Russian-leaning or Mongol khanate. The long game seems like "keep the fight out in the yard and off my porch".
Click to expand...
This is much better than the typical regurgitation of the “news” and NATO’s spiel of the moment.
 
#86,570
#86,570
Orange. said:
You like it that we lied to Russia repeatedly about not expanding NATO beyond Germany? That’s provocation and betrayal. You realize that NATO was an anti-communist alignment, not an anti-Russian race-baiting league, right? You think it was smart to sabotage glasnost?

Instead of realizing NATO’s stated goal and recognizing the end of the USSR, instead of bringing Russia into to West — like you approved when it involved the Nazis and Nazi allies — we lied. NATO aimed to push to the Russian border when it was no longer a Soviet state. It’s another US government program that refused to end; but its mission was over. Soviet communism was defeated. Try to keep up. And the real intention of the these NATO cheerleaders (as everyone knows) is to overthrow the non-Soviet government of Russia and install a puppet. It would be the grift to end all grifts to get hold of those riches.

NATO invents new ways every year to keep hiring and spending. It has propagandized people like you to wrongly make of the Russian people — not communism — as an implacable enemy. The Russian people (not the regime) that fought decisively as our allies against the Nazi regimes and whose own people have been readily welcomed into the fold.

Too many Americans have been conned into identifying Russians as communists or Soviets to keep the grift alive. Peter the Great, by the way (since you don’t appear to know) was the Russian leader who wanted to make Russia part of Europe. To emulate the West. A Westernizer. Not a communist.
Click to expand...

Lol we didn't lie to Russia about anything, we didn't even lie to the USSR about NATO expansion. Don't take my word for it, here's Gorbachev himself saying so:


Russia invading Ukraine was never about NATO. NATO is responsible for the longest period in Russia's history without them being invaded. They even drew down there military forces on the Finish border after they joined NATO.

www.yahoo.com

Russia has moved almost all troops from Finnish border to Ukraine – photos

Despite Moscow's threats over Finland's NATO accession, Russian bases near the Finnish border are virtually empty as Russia has redeployed personnel and equipment from these bases to Ukraine. Source: Finnish broadcaster Yle, citing sources in intelligence, as reported by European Pravda Details...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

Repeating Russian nonsense won't make it true.
 
#86,571
#86,571
Orange. said:
So you endorse the US repeatedly lying to Russia (not the Soviets) about the security guarantees and assurances we gave Russia as a condition for their permitting NATO in East Germany “and not one inch” further east?

Then why do you whine about the US conning Ukraine by lying about their security assurance when the nukes were removed? Same ploy.

You seem to have a perverse anf convenient sense of history. It’s the “official” NATO expansion propaganda line and acknowledges nothing before the Soviet coup. And nothing after the end of the Soviet regime.

Ukraine was communist by its own efforts before it was joined with the Soviets. Do you want to restore communism in Ukraine too?

Russia was our WWI ally and not communist before the Germans — our WWI enemy — initiated the (Soviet) coup in Russia by smuggling Lenin into Russia. That, in order to incapacitate our Eastern ally and end Germany’s Eastern front. Do you want to restore our Russian alliance? Why not?

I hope your narrow-window legalism doesn’t incite you want to restore the British empire to its 1917 boundaries?
Click to expand...
1742918714272.png

Gorbachev is laughing at you from his grave.
 
#86,572
#86,572
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#86,575
#86,575
hog88 said:
Yes, a SCOTUS ruling right after a brutal civil war. Yet there is absolutely nothing in the constitution prohibiting secession.
Click to expand...

A civil war in which the Confederate states had no legal basis to exist under the US constitution.

Don't like it? Change the Constitution to allow unilateral secession by member states.
www.archives.gov

Constitutional Amendment Process

The authority to amend the Constitution of the United States is derived from Article V of the Constitution. After Congress proposes an amendment, the Archivist of the United States, who heads the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), is charged with responsibility for...
www.archives.gov www.archives.gov
 
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