President Donald Trump - J.D. Vance Administration

#14,576
#14,576
n_huffhines said:
OK, but should I wait 7 years to detract and complain to make sure they stick and say these tariffs suck, or should I criticize what is happening before it becomes the norm?
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Like raising other taxes, you can complain about the dumb idea. Complain about the expected increase. But you can also wait for impact (both positive and negative) so your complaints are accurate.
 
#14,578
#14,578
McDad said:
Like raising other taxes, you can complain about the dumb idea. Complain about the expected increase. But you can also wait for impact (both positive and negative) so your complaints are accurate.
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It sounds like we need to do cost/benefit analysis before having the data because it'd be impossible to do with the data?
 
#14,580
#14,580
McDad said:
I don't follow. Why impossible with data?
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If I read the response correctly, he has to criticize the tariffs (and potential normalization of them) now because if he were to wait to see their results, there would be no way to prove one way or another whether they helped or hurt.

n_huffhines said:
What data will I have to go off in the future? There will be no conclusive data one way or another on the cost/benefit. What are you talking about?

It's weird how butthurt you guys are because I posted a little clip from Fox News.
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#14,581
#14,581
Orange_Crush said:
If I read the response correctly, he has to criticize the tariffs (and potential normalization of them) now because if he were to wait to see their results, there would be no way to prove one way or another whether they helped or hurt.
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Oh, I understand better now. Thanks.
I don't know if your proposal is accurate. I agree in general with Huff and others that tariffs are not good for the consumer.

But I think in Trump's case, cost / benefit could be done. I think that's true because he is using tariffs as a hard-line negotiating tactic. The changes observed in other country's policies should be known.

What do you think?
 
#14,582
#14,582
McDad said:
Oh, I understand better now. Thanks.
I don't know if your proposal is accurate. I agree in general with Huff and others that tariffs are not good for the consumer.

But I think in Trump's case, cost / benefit could be done. I think that's true because he is using tariffs as a hard-line negotiating tactic. The changes observed in other country's policies should be known.

What do you think?
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I think tariffs could help. They could hurt. I just also think that it's strange to predict the outcome of a cost/benefit analysis and then claim that the subject can't be measured. It seems like a self-defeating argument.

If we are at in trade deficit due to tariffs against us, and our nation has the greatest purchasing power in the world, then tariffs can become a very useful economic and policy tool. We've already seen that just the threat of tariffs are a good way to negotiate globally.

But if tariffs give us equal footing on the global trade market, they can actually be beneficial. Foreigners stop selling us foreign products to undercut American products. The expense of importing can lead foreign producers to make their products here. That doesn't increase costs; it creates jobs, and dollars pumped into the economy, etc...
 
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#14,583
#14,583
Orange_Crush said:
I think tariffs could help. They could hurt. I just also think that it's strange to predict the outcome of a cost/benefit analysis and then claim that the subject can't be measured. It seems like a self-defeating argument.

If we are at in trade deficit due to tariffs against us, and our nation has the greatest purchasing power in the world, then tariffs can become a very useful economic and policy tool. We've already seen that just the threat of tariffs are a good way to negotiate globally.

But if tariffs give us equal footing on the global trade market, they can actually be beneficial. Foreigners stop selling us foreign products to undercut American products. The expense of importing can lead foreign producers to make their products here. That doesn't increase costs; it creates jobs, and dollars pumped into the economy, etc...
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That's the crux of it as I see it, too.

There are many who are pro tariff for the same reasons you shared. If i remember correctly, AM64 wants to see our manufacturing on an equal footing with countries where labor is cheap. Products made in America are better for all Americans.

Do you have concerns about increased cost and the impact on household budgets?
 
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#14,584
#14,584
luthervol said:
My official stance would be that trump will probably not destroy democracy but will absolutely continue to irreparably harm it.
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Who is standing with all of the 80% in the 80/20 rule On every important issue. That is democracy…..doing the will of the people.

Since you did not watch last night, your team could not stand and clap for a kid’s cured cancer, for a young man making into The Academy, for securing our border highlighting safety and security for all, plus many other obvious heart-warming moments that were good FOR ALL AMERICANS. And yet, the left (and you), just sit.

Keep it up and this ends the Democratic Party. The American people, DEMOCRATICALLY will see to it.
 
#14,586
#14,586
luthervol said:
That's total BS and nothing more than a complete copout.
I said from the beginning that the worst thing possible would be to normalize trump.
I still view him as a once in 300 year catastrophic anomaly.
and...............
A horrendously despicable human.
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Why?

Everything you all have thrown at him has been proven to be untrue.

Meanwhile he is trying to make America better again. What has your side done?
 
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#14,590
#14,590
McDad said:
That's the crux of it as I see it, too.

There are many who are pro tariff for the same reasons you shared. If i remember correctly, AM64 wants to see our manufacturing on an equal footing with countries where labor is cheap. Products made in America are better for all Americans.

Do you have concerns about increased cost and the impact on household budgets?
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I think it'll be 'yet to be seen'.

First, I think we will end up with fewer tariffs than are being threatened right now. They are Trump swinging one of the big sticks that America has--purchasing power.

I think we will probably tariff other countries at the rate they tariff us. I think there is the chance that cost of living goes up slightly, but the influx of jobs and salaries into the economy likely outmatches that so that overall quality of life goes up. I think there may be hidden cost savings that come with good job creation--like more people getting health insurance from work instead of tax-supported Obamacare... More people having access to 401k matches...

And don't discount the income that tariffs would create for the country, shifting some of the tax burden to foreign companies.

I also think it's an odd argument from anyone pushing for basic human rights. On one hand, lots of people decry foreign sweatshops and child labor abuses. But then they also argue that our economy needs cheap imports to survive. Trump can announce a policy that would have those same products made here under our fairly protective labor laws, and their answer is "No thanks, we need the cheap labor and unfriendly exchange rates".
 
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#14,591
#14,591
luthervol said:
The creation of an environment in which an otherwise normal and supposedly intelligent person would post an idiotic meme highlighting the intended division of the nation as if it is some clever commentary on the current state of society.
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yeah, the Dems are doing that; but what about the MAGA crowd? I thought it was Trump's followers you were talking about.
 
#14,592
#14,592
Orange_Crush said:
I think it'll be 'yet to be seen'.

First, I think we will end up with fewer tariffs than are being threatened right now. They are Trump swinging one of the big sticks that America has--purchasing power.

I think we will probably tariff other countries at the rate they tariff us. I think there is the chance that cost of living goes up slightly, but the influx of jobs and salaries into the economy likely outmatches that so that overall quality of life goes up. I think there may be hidden cost savings that come with good job creation--like more people getting health insurance from work instead of tax-supported Obamacare... More people having access to 401k matches...

And don't discount the income that tariffs would create for the country, shifting some of the tax burden to foreign companies.

I also think it's an odd argument from anyone pushing for basic human rights. On one hand, lots of people decry foreign sweatshops and child labor abuses. But then they also argue that our economy needs cheap imports to survive. Trump can announce a policy that would have those same products made here under our fairly protective labor laws, and their answer is "No thanks, we need the cheap labor and unfriendly exchange rates".
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Lot's of juicy nuggets in here to pick your brain about.

RE Sweatshops: If a child is going to work in a field for a nickel a day, but has the option of working in a factory for a dime a day, would you say they are making a bad decision or are a victim of human rights abuse?
 
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#14,593
#14,593
jmacvols1 said:
you just do not want to see the judicial corruption.
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except for me literally mentioning the "judicial corruption" in that post, right?

I swear that his orange spray tan is bad for you guy's reading comprehension. its been upteen times already this term where I have said something about X and yall come back and say "hurp durp durp Trump is never wrong, well what about X?"

I see it, the judiciary telling the president how to spend money, as bad. but just because its bad, doesn't make it a Constitutional Crisis every five minutes a new comes out. Thats the new, new racism overused term.

I tell people all the time, things are usually not as good as they seem, nor are they usually as bad as they seem. especially if its the media or the government telling you how good or bad it is. but because I am not jumping into the deep end crying about every time Trump doesn't get his way, it supposedly means I don't see anything as wrong. its a bs, lazy argument.
 
#14,594
#14,594
McDad said:
Lot's of juicy nuggets in here to pick your brain about.

RE Sweatshops: If a child is going to work in a field for a nickel a day, but has the option of working in a factory for a dime a day, would you say they are making a bad decision or are a victim of human rights abuse?
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First, I'm no expert.

My point was just that if a person hates those things happening over there, why would they argue against moving the work here where we can make sure the employees are paid 'fair' wages and are given protections?

But I see what I think your point is. If we take that foreign child-labor job away, we've reduced his options without improving the culture, so it's probably a net negative for them. Point taken, and that may be the answer to my hypothetical question per "why argue against insourcing the production to our labor force?".
 
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#14,595
#14,595
Orange_Crush said:
First, I'm no expert.

My point was just that if a person hates those things happening over there, why would they argue against moving the work here where we can make sure the employees are paid 'fair' wages and are given protections?

But I see what I think your point is. If we take that foreign child-labor job away, we've reduced his options without improving the culture, so it's probably a net negative for them. Point taken, and that may be the answer to my hypothetical question per "why argue against insourcing the production to our labor force?".
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Im no expert either. I want AMerica to do the right thing...ethically and morally. I had never thought about child labor like that until I heard Walter Williams discuss it.

Onto the next nugget:
The concept of shifting the tax burden via tariffs to foreign companies.

Do you find that consumers are the ones who are ypically responsible for paying a tax levied on a company? Mojo has discussed this topic in the past. He thinks some taxes are passed on to the consumer and some are not. If you think taxes are passed to consumer, why would tariffs be different to you?
 
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#14,596
#14,596
McDad said:
Im no expert either. I want AMerica to do the right thing...ethically and morally. I had never thought about child labor like that until I heard Walter Williams discuss it.

Onto the next nugget:
The concept of shifting the tax burden via tariffs to foreign companies.

Do you find that consumers are the ones who typically responsible for paying a tax levied on a company? Mojo has discussed this topic in the past. He thinks some taxes are passed on to the consumer and some are not. If you think taxes are passed to consumer, why would tariffs be different to you?
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I could not imagine any tax levied against a company not being passed onto the customer in some way. Again, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that a company will look at all costs of production and release to the consumer, and find a price-point that allows a competitive price that brings a profit.

So, to answer... Yes, I suspect that the consumers are the ones that typically pay the taxes levied on a company, which is why I stated that cost of living may go up. But if American-made products become more competitive in the market, and American jobs are created, that may be offset largely or completely.

Trump is talking about reducing or removing income tax and letting tariffs to fill the void. It is my understanding that that was how it worked pre-income tax. So, it looks like we have a historical example of it working. If that were the case, that puts more of the old and newly created salaries into the workers' pockets, and thus the economy. Which may help alleviate the cost-of-living risk as well.
 
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#14,600
#14,600
  • A Quinnipiac poll shows Democratic approval in Congress at a historic low, with only 21% of voters approving. Meanwhile, Republican approval has reached a record high at 40%.
  • SurveyUSA found that 60% of Democrats believe their lawmakers aren’t doing enough to oppose Trump.
  • A Gallup poll shows 45% of Democrats now prefer a more moderate party direction, an 11 percentage point increase since 2021.

Which party is representing the will of the people……democracy???
 
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