War in Ukraine

#84,176
#84,176
volbound1700 said:
While I agree with you in context, your discussion reminds me a lot of John Adams and Benjamin Franklin and how they approached the French.

John Adams came in like Zelensky while Benjamin Franklin was very much working the system. In the HBO series, he had to pull John Adams aside to restrain him.

There is a saying, when in Rome, act like the Romans. I think Trump is being bullheaded and wants peace no matter what the context, but Zelensky also needs to be able to read the room like Franklin did.
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That show was very questionable with their history. It was also a horrible representation of Franklin based on most accounts I've read
 
#84,177
#84,177
bamawriter said:
I'm not saying you're wrong. But why is 100% of the ire reserved for the nation that was attacked rather than the aggressor?
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There isn’t but is it worth going to war just to save a money laundering operation? They can either keep fighting, hug it out, or make a deal.
 
#84,183
#84,183
volfanhill said:
Karl is correct


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This has been my issue with as well. That discussion should not have happened in front of cameras. There should have been a private discussion, and if there were no consensus or even agreement towards some framework the meeting should have been called off.

Nothing good comes out of this. We look bad, he looks bad. All we've seeded is distrust and more uncertainty with the situation in Europe, Ukraine and Russia.
 
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#84,184
#84,184
utvolpj said:
That show was very questionable with their history. It was also a horrible representation of Franklin based on most accounts I've read
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I will say this, he didn't come in all cocky with the French King and Nobility. He played the long game with them and it paid off. The point is there. Diplomacy 101.

Is Trump's request and actions probably ridiculous? Sure. However, it is a HORRIBLE political move to piss off the nation you most need to help you win a war.

I doubt Franklin would have any traction if he came in and pissed off the French Nobility and Louis 16th.
 
#84,185
#84,185
bamawriter said:
whocares-no-one-cares.gif
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Because he sitting there in what looks like his pajamas.
 
#84,186
#84,186
KB5252 said:
This has been my issue with as well. That discussion should not have happened in front of cameras. There should have been a private discussion, and if there were no consensus or even agreement towards some framework the meeting should have been called off.

Nothing good comes out of this. We look bad, he looks bad. All we've seeded is distrust and more uncertainty with the situation in Europe, Ukraine and Russia.
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Someone that understands. It is BOTH Zelenskyy and Trump that are messing this up by letting their fights go public. Great post.

I will state that they probably have had a lot of private discussions that haven't gone well. This looks like they had bad blood going even before the meeting.
 
#84,187
#84,187
KB5252 said:
This has been my issue with as well. That discussion should not have happened in front of cameras. There should have been a private discussion, and if there were no consensus or even agreement towards some framework the meeting should have been called off.

Nothing good comes out of this. We look bad, he looks bad. All we've seeded is distrust and more uncertainty with the situation in Europe, Ukraine and Russia.
Click to expand...

Then you missed the point. The point was to put it on camera, so that Trump can frame Zelensky as an obstacle to peace, while Putin is is not, regardless of the fact that Putin has zero desire for "peace" other than the "peace" of surrender.
 
#84,193
#84,193
A reporter from the Russian news agency TASS snuck into the contentious Oval Office meeting between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and was escorted out by White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt.

oh-sure-john-candy.gif


www.dailymail.co.uk

Karoline Leavitt boots Russian journalist from Oval Office

A reporter from the Russian news agency TASS snuck into the Oval Office meeting between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
#84,194
#84,194
BeardedVol said:
Then you missed the point. The point was to put it on camera, so that Trump can frame Zelensky as an obstacle to peace, while Putin is is not, regardless of the fact that Putin has zero desire for "peace" other than the "peace" of surrender.
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I think Zelenski wanted security assurances but wasn't getting it and realized he was being hung out to dry. He most likely tried an emotional plea that pushed out with more anger and frustration than he intended and it went further south from there.

Trump should not have allowed that too go public in front of cameras. Zelenski should have known that his frustration could be used against him. Better to go back home and try to leverage some European pressure to that end.

Bottom line is that discussion being public was a disaster in the making. Maybe he was goaded by Trump, but I've also been told Trump isn't that smart, he's just reactionary. I'm not completely sure one way or the other.
 
#84,196
#84,196
KB5252 said:
This has been my issue with as well. That discussion should not have happened in front of cameras. There should have been a private discussion, and if there were no consensus or even agreement towards some framework the meeting should have been called off.

Nothing good comes out of this. We look bad, he looks bad. All we've seeded is distrust and more uncertainty with the situation in Europe, Ukraine and Russia.
Click to expand...
The point was for it to be public. This was a rouse to create this narrative. It was about as effective as a hammer on a tonsillectomy, but it was by design.
 
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#84,198
#84,198
NorthDallas40 said:
To anyone actually watching and able to move beyond the Vogue fashion critique, the clear take away here is that the Trump admin cannot work with the Ukraine admin and at this point the EU should take the lead in any actual bilateral discussions and assume the US is withdrawing. Because that is going to be the result from this and ultimately the EU has to manage whatever actually does happen at the end of hostilities
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I've always thought it was Europe's problem anyway.
 
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#84,199
#84,199
KB5252 said:
I think Zelenski wanted security assurances but wasn't getting it and realized he was being hung out to dry. He most likely tried an emotional plea that pushed out with more anger and frustration than he intended and it went further south from there.

Trump should not have allowed that too go public in front of cameras. Zelenski should have known that his frustration could be used against him. Better to go back home and try to leverage some European pressure to that end.

Bottom line is that discussion being public was a disaster in the making. Maybe he was goaded by Trump, but I've also been told Trump isn't that smart, he's just reactionary. I'm not completely sure one way or the other.
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Trump tends to use emotion to negotiate. He hates you until you come to his side and then you are the greatest thing ever. It has been his MO even before he got into politics. If Zelenskyy was agreeing to Trump right now, Trump would be praising him to the high heavens as the smartest person ever.

Trump's style definitely isn't my style at all and I have been very disappointed with this entire negotiation process on our part but I am willing to wait it out to see if things can get better.

I think there has been stuff going on for some time and it blew up today. We are clearly not on the same page with Ukraine. Other politicians have been attacking Zelenskyy too such as Marco Rubio and JD Vance are apparently really upset at them and cite several insulting actions going back to Biden era. I know that they are biased parties but it has you thinking.
 
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