Recruiting Football Talk VIII

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#125,801
#125,801
MoCo_Vol said:
Right, then he went a full ass season averaging 16.4 and 9.7 for Cavs before then having another role player type season the year they won the title.

They didn't get 26 & 12.5 Love at all, and they had 2 full seasons of proof with him as a Cav to know that going into those playoffs...

Still though Kevin Love isn't a HOF player.
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Clearly he can't use his eyes, or his reality is different from anyone else's on the planet.
 
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#125,803
#125,803
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
No it means a lot. Which is why I have him as a top 5 player despite his putrid defense. Jokic is so good offensively that even a guy like myself who values defense will give him props for how impactful he still is despite hurting his team on defense.

If Jokic played better defense the Nuggets would be dynasty like the 90s Bulls. That's how bad his defense is. He's leaving rings on the table because of how poorly he plays for 50% of the game. Just think of it this way. If he's that good statistically he should be winning more.
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He literally grades out as an average defender. According to your metrics, he won a title already with a team weaker than any MJ, Kobe, or LeBron team.

If he played better defense he would have a dynasty with Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray?
 
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#125,804
#125,804
Smokey123 said:
You literally said “until lebron outplayed him in the finals” you also used stats for your reason AD was better that year…
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I should have included the word statistically there. And I already explained why I used stats there. It's because I like exposing the hypocrisy of LeBron fans like yourself who will gladly post stats when they benefit LeBron in an argument versus a player but then ignore stats when they don't favor LeBron. I've already said I rate players solely using the eye test. But when I can I will use stats to expose the hypocrisy of those I'm debating.
 
#125,805
#125,805
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
I should have included the word statistically there. And I already explained why I used stats there. It's because I like exposing the hypocrisy of LeBron fans like yourself who will gladly post stats when they benefit LeBron in an argument versus a player but then ignore stats when they don't favor LeBron. I've already said I rate players solely using the eye test. But when I can I will use stats to expose the hypocrisy of those I'm debating.
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I never once posted or used stats as an argument. You brought them up.

Nor am I a lebron fan. I don’t like him. You’re the one who brought him up when talking about AD
 
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#125,807
#125,807
Smokey123 said:
Harden was not a superstar on OKC. He was coming off the bench and didn’t develop into elite until he left.
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Eye test would have told you he was a superstar. I personally feared him on that team more than Russ. He killed the Lakers in that 2012 playoff series coming off the bench. The only reason his production wasn't greater was because of circumstance. Once he got to Houston the following year he put up superstar numbers. He was already a superstar talent in 2012 he just didn't have the opportunity to show it on the stat sheet however if you watched him play you knew he was a problem.
 
#125,809
#125,809
The best part about the eye test is that when the person using that as their metric is blind they can't even see how bad their arguments are.

At least AD is a future HOF player...
 
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#125,811
#125,811
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Well AD not in any GOAT conversations. If he were then the mickey mouse ring would pale in comparison to a real championships like those won by Hakeem.

Everything is about context. In the context of GOAT debates everything gets parsed.
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You're the guy that took a "top 5 current players" debate from AD > Jokic to debating Lebron's "mickey mouse" championship, pal.
 
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#125,812
#125,812
Smokey123 said:
Then why did AD have 5 losing season in Nola? I guess he’s just not that good of an all around player
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Supporting cast matters. I'd have loved to see what AD could have done with Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr., and Aaron Gordon. Those 3 are all borderline all-star caliber talents. Those 3 plus AD could have done some damage.
 
#125,813
#125,813
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Eye test would have told you he was a superstar. I personally feared him on that team more than Russ. He killed the Lakers in that 2012 playoff series coming off the bench. The only reason his production wasn't greater was because of circumstance. Once he got to Houston the following year he put up superstar numbers. He was already a superstar talent in 2012 he just didn't have the opportunity to show it on the stat sheet however if you watched him play you knew he was a problem.
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Potential doesn’t mean anything. There’s plenty of amazing players in every sport sitting on the bench waiting for an opportunity. That doesn’t mean they get classified as a superstar before getting that chance.
 
#125,815
#125,815
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Supporting cast matters. I'd have loved to see what AD could have done with Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr., and Aaron Gordon. Those 3 are all borderline all-star caliber talents. Those 3 plus AD could have done some damage.
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Miss playoffs like he did with Jrue Holiday, Tyreke Evans and Eric Gordon...

Gordon while with NO: 15.3 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.4 rpg
Evans while with NO: 14.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 1.2 spg
Holiday while with NO: 17.6 ppg, 6.8 apg, 4.2 rpg

Didn't even mention the years AD had Cousins and Randle with him...
 
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#125,817
#125,817
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Supporting cast matters. I'd have loved to see what AD could have done with Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr., and Aaron Gordon. Those 3 are all borderline all-star caliber talents. Those 3 plus AD could have done some damage.
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If you consider MPJ and Gordon all star talents then I’m not even responding. Especially MPJ. You clearly don’t watch games. At least Gordon is a great defender. AD had multiple players just as good as those 2 lol… then cousins came in too
 
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#125,818
#125,818
PlanetVolunteer said:
He literally grades out as an average defender. According to your metrics, he won a title already with a team weaker than any MJ, Kobe, or LeBron team.

If he played better defense he would have a dynasty with Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray?
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Do you really want me to start posting footage of Jokic on defense. Please don't make me do it cause it's putrid to watch. Saying he's an average defender lets me know you don't watch him play much.

I think Murray, Gordon, and MPJ are 3 really good borderline all-star caliber players. I don't think Jokic is carrying a weak supporting cast. I think they're a really good supporting cast that would be an all-time team if Jokic was better defensively. Hakeem Olajuwon with this Nuggets roster wins at least 3 championships.
 
#125,822
#125,822
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Eye test would have told you he was a superstar. I personally feared him on that team more than Russ. He killed the Lakers in that 2012 playoff series coming off the bench. The only reason his production wasn't greater was because of circumstance. Once he got to Houston the following year he put up superstar numbers. He was already a superstar talent in 2012 he just didn't have the opportunity to show it on the stat sheet however if you watched him play you knew he was a problem.
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Harden also a problem on the defensive end where he is useless. Not a superstar because he only plays half the game.

Am I doing it right?
 
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#125,823
#125,823
Smokey123 said:
Potential doesn’t mean anything. There’s plenty of amazing players in every sport sitting on the bench waiting for an opportunity. That doesn’t mean they get classified as a superstar before getting that chance.
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Harden was dominating Kobe Bryant's Lakers in a playoff series. It wasn't just potential. He was proving it. He just needed his own team for the opportunity to show it statistically. No different than Kobe needing Shaq to leave to show the full breadth of his talents.
 
#125,824
#125,824
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Harden was dominating Kobe Bryant's Lakers in a playoff series. It wasn't just potential. He was proving it. He just needed his own team for the opportunity to show it statistically. No different than Kobe needing Shaq to leave to show the full breadth of his talents.
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And Kobe wasn’t the kobe he’s remembered as his first 3 years. Harden shot 30% that series……
 
#125,825
#125,825
volinexile17 said:
Harden also a problem on the defensive end where he is useless. Not a superstar because he only plays half the game.

Am I doing it right?
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No you can be a superstar as a weak defender. I would never dare say someone like Magic or Dirk weren't superstars. But they're not getting in any GOAT or all-time debate with guys who played elite on both sides of the ball.

Jokic is a superstar. But he'll never be in the same class as Hakeem.
 
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