What is ultimately at stake tomorrow

#127
#127
C-south said:
Then you have the theory of everything just spontaneously coming from nothing.
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This always begs the question where did the designer come from? And still doesn’t address what all the other stuff was for, or why we are doomed to failure from the beginning.
 
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#128
#128
rjd970 said:
This always begs the question where did the designer come from? And still doesn’t address what all the other stuff was for, or why we are doomed to failure from the beginning.
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Bit of a quandary. Guess it comes down to faith.
 
#129
#129
C-south said:
Bit of a quandary. Guess it comes down to faith.
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I would argue common sense. The intelligent or divine explanation makes no sense in this case. Nothing about this is intelligent, and if designed, it’s extremely poor.
 
#130
#130
rjd970 said:
This has been one of my arguments against an intelligent designer. The universe is billions of light years huge, with innumerable galaxies, stars, and stuff we haven’t discovered yet…and we live in this petty little rock in an obscure corner of the universe in a plain, run of the mill galaxy around a common star the rock orbits that can support some life on some of its surface some of the time while we are doomed to failure by a star that will eventually expand and engulf said Little Rock and everything on it wiping out all evidence of ever existing.

This is an “intelligent” design? And it gets even less believable, if you can imagine, when the designer has a God and religion and saviors and prophets and divine books added into the mix of the explanation.
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You make several assumptions that you may wish to reconsider. First, yes we do dwell on a small planet in an obscure corner of an almost limitless universe. But there is nothing to say that an intelligent Designer didn’t create other worlds populated by other sentient beings. We could be just one inhabitant of a huge house. Secondly and conversely, there is nothing to preclude a Designer from choosing to focus on just one tiny corner of his creation for an intense level of care, it would be the equivalent of an artist painting a huge landscape but spending countless hour perfecting one tiny flower.

One thing that keeps grabbing my attention though is the fact that humans remain incapable of producing a mix of chemicals and amoio acids that suddenly becomes „alive“. If life was able to arise spontaneously, how come no one can make that happen in a labratory?
 
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#132
#132
rjd970 said:
This always begs the question where did the designer come from? And still doesn’t address what all the other stuff was for, or why we are doomed to failure from the beginning.
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Capt Kirk and the Enterprise
 
#133
#133
rjd970 said:
This always begs the question where did the designer come from? And still doesn’t address what all the other stuff was for, or why we are doomed to failure from the beginning.
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I'm always fascinated at responses to this question.

Though there are only two logical options, 1. an argument of infinite regress where there's no distinguishable ultimate creator or 2, the capitulation that not everything needs a "creator/designer" due to <insert special circumstance here.>
 
#134
#134
rjd970 said:
I would argue common sense. The intelligent or divine explanation makes no sense in this case. Nothing about this is intelligent, and if designed, it’s extremely poor.
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I'll just add to the discussion that religion writ large and more specifically choosing a specific religion to explain or set the rules for the question of our existence is extremely limiting.

a designer could merely have set something in motion. something could have existed before our universe or concurrently with it. could be any number of universes each created differently.

who knows - I don't discount most views. arguing that what Christianity says about the creation has holes in it is pretty irrelevant in my book. same with saying why wasn't it designed better (whatever better means).
 
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#135
#135
rjd970 said:
I would argue common sense. The intelligent or divine explanation makes no sense in this case. Nothing about this is intelligent, and if designed, it’s extremely poor.
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Common sense tells you a fart came from nothing and spontaneously created everything?
 
#136
#136
Septic said:
I'm always fascinated at responses to this question.

Though there are only two logical options, 1. an argument of infinite regress where there's no distinguishable ultimate creator or 2, the capitulation that not everything needs a "creator/designer" due to <insert special circumstance here.>
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how about 3, something exists outside of our universe or ability as tiny little specks to understand?

who knows but there are many possibilities and many times I think it's the arrogance of man to believe we can just suss it out and it absolutely has to be something we can explain with western scientific thinking
 
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#139
#139
OrangeTsar said:
You make several assumptions that you may wish to reconsider. First, yes we do dwell on a small planet in an obscure corner of an almost limitless universe. But there is nothing to say that an intelligent Designer didn’t create other worlds populated by other sentient beings. We could be just one inhabitant of a huge house. Secondly and conversely, there is nothing to preclude a Designer from choosing to focus on just one tiny corner of his creation for an intense level of care, it would be the equivalent of an artist painting a huge landscape but spending countless hour perfecting one tiny flower.

One thing that keeps grabbing my attention though is the fact that humans remain incapable of producing a mix of chemicals and amoio acids that suddenly becomes „alive“. If life was able to arise spontaneously, how come no one can make that happen in a labratory?
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Spending countless hours “perfecting” one tiny flower, with the sole intention of burning it in flames?

What?

99% of all life ever existing on this “perfect” little flower is now extinct by natural causes as a result of this intelligent entity. This is some design isn’t it?

Any way you cut it the “intelligent designer” argument makes no sense.
 
#142
#142
rjd970 said:
Spending countless hours “perfecting” one tiny flower, with the sole intention of burning it in flames?

What?

99% of all life ever existing on this “perfect” little flower is now extinct by natural causes as a result of this intelligent entity. This is some design isn’t it?

Any way you cut it the “intelligent designer” argument makes no sense.
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Yet here we are
 
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#144
#144
SpaceCoastVol said:
That takes a heck of a lot more faith than believing in a Creator. There was nothing, then all this. mmmmkay
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What created the creator? This always gets glossed over in these arguments.

The creator is eternal by definition? Great - why can’t we say the universe is eternal by definition? We are, after all, talking about the “beginning” of time itself, so notions of “before” or “after” time have no meaning. It’s like asking what is south of the South Pole. Nothing - once you get there and keep going you are now heading to the North Pole.

There is zero evidence precluding all space and time really exist in a closed manifold. A designer/creator is neither needed nor warranted for this universe to exist.
 
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#147
#147
rjd970 said:
What created the creator? This always gets glossed over in these arguments.

The creator is eternal by definition? Great - why can’t we say the universe is eternal by definition? We are, after all, talking about the “beginning” of time itself, so notions of “before” or “after” time have no meaning. It’s like asking what is south of the South Pole. Nothing - once you get there and keep going you are now heading to the North Pole.

There is zero evidence precluding all space and time really exist in a closed manifold. A designer/creator is neither needed nor warranted for this universe to exist.
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But there had to be something for the universe to exist. Your argument is that a creator doesn’t make sense while ignoring the fact it doesn’t make sense for s*** to just all of a sudden blow up from nothing.
 
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#149
#149
C-south said:
But there had to be something for the universe to exist. Your argument is that a creator doesn’t make sense while ignoring the fact it doesn’t make sense for s*** to just all of a sudden blow up from nothing.
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Why did there have “to be something” for the universe to exist, and why does that “something” not have the same requirement?
 
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