Trump Assassination Attempt(s)

[McDad]

I just don't understand why people dismiss government malice so easily now, especially after the last few years.

I am happy to explain where I am on it.

I don't like politicians. I don't like bureaucracy. I don't trust either. But my dislike and distrust is more about the inefficiency and waste of the organizations, and the lack of integrity and expanding government from the politicians.

I do not think for a second politicians or government agencies look to assassinate a domestic political rival. At the same time, I have no doubt they will do that abroad with certain people or groups deemed realistic threats. So when these events happen domestically, I ascribe them to a person on the margins of society finding opportunity in agencies that are bloated and wasteful.

I am sure this comes across as naive. And that's okay. I don't expect anyone to believe what I do. I just wanted to provide understanding if possible.

 

[volbound1700]

The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications for minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system — i.e., citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. In a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure democracy," the majority is not restrained in this way and can impose its will on the minority.

I guess the Pledge of Allegiance did have a purpose…”and in the Republic for which it stands.”. Civics really needs to be required in schools; I see things like “why doesn’t President put in a new Supreme Court to support his agenda”; “why doesn’t the President pass a law”.

Executive, Legislative, Judicial. Congress makes the laws - legislates. The President sees to implementation of the laws Congress passes - executes them (and NOT in the definition of killing them‍). The Supreme Court verifies the laws are constitutional when questioned - adjudicates. No the Supreme Court does NOT make law - the times I have seen that claimed, anymore than Congress or the President, gets to make the ultimate decision of a law’s constitutionality.

Somehow, I may be wrong, but I think you already know all of the above. May be wrong, maybe you don’t. I’ve been surprised and disappointed before now.

---

I think this is splitting hairs personally and I don't mind using both terms for the USA.

How you define a Democracy has NEVER been done before across the globe. However, when I think of Pure Republics, I think of Athens and Rome which were states that had limited voter base. Athens and Rome both had a slave class that could not vote and you had to be property owners to vote and certain votes counted more than others. It had borderline Oligarchy tenants.

Aristotle sums it up well as "Republic" was a term that came to uniquely define the Athenian System. So Sparta had elected Kings but only the nobles or elite could vote. Athens opened the door to the Merchant Class (We would call Middle Class) so that was why they were a Republic vs. Oligarchy. In Athens, any male, property owner could vote. Rome had a similar system but it had more of an Oligarchy setup in that there were certain positions and votes that only the elites could hold or vote on.

When the USA and other Modern Democracies came along (yes I called them Democracies), they instituted equal rights to everyone, something that other Republics did not provide.

You have had many Republics before the USA: Ancient Sumeria, Athens, Rome, Dutch Republic, Poland-Lithuania Commonwealth at times, etc. but the modern version of Democracies (or as you call Republics) are different than what was done in the past. USA was truly unique in its setup. It took ideas from Parliament, Athens, Rome, and even the Bible and FreeMason to but together a truly unique setup.

Other nations across the globe have slowly adopted governments similar to USA over time starting with France in the 1790s. Today, variants of the USA form of government are the majority setup across the globe.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

If I understand you correctly, I think there are glaring failures across the board. Perimeter, communication, number of personnel available, no contingency for sloped roof (apparently), Trump allowed to go on stage with a known active threat, Crpoks walking around evaluating the best opportunity, nobody stationed on a known advantageous point. And those are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head.

No, I mean failures in all areas of the secret service, not just this event. Those are just failures at this event and failures to their #1 goal. There should be failures everywhere in the SS if they have so many massive failures at a single event.

Someone needs to take a close look at all things the SS does. If they can have so many failures at one event for their top goal, there must be failures in everything they do. If there are no failures on this scale with the other officials they protect, then why so many at this one event?

I don't believe the SS really ever fails like this. So why was there a dozen or more failures on that weekend?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Covid, sure.

Remember, safe AND effective.

 

[McDad]

No, I mean failures in all areas of the secret service, not just this event. Those are just failures at this event and failures to their #1 goal. Their should be failures everywhere in the SS if they have so many massive failures at a single event.

Someone needs to take a close look at all things the SS does. If they can have so many failures at one event for their top goal, there must be failures in everything they do. If there are no failures on this scale with the other officials they protect, then why so many at this one event?

I don't believe the SS really ever fails like this. So why was there a dozen or more failures on that weekend?

Thanks, I understand you better. There are failures every event, I think. No event of this magnitude can be be perfectly secure. We only are aware of failures in those unique, rare moments someone is present and a failure relative to their plan is available.

Let me make an analogy. We only hear of gun violence. We rarely hear of defensive gun uses. Ask someone who casually consumes media, and they will say we have far more gun violence. Why? That is the only time there is "news" relative to gun uses. Turns out defensive gun uses are far more common than gun violence.

For me, the SS failures are similar. We are never aware when there are failures and there is not nefarious with ill intent at the event to exploit the failure. We are never aware of when the nefarious person is present and decides to not go through with plans because of the protective features encountered. We are only going to hear of those moments where failures, opportunity, and a nefarious person in attendance all line up.

eta, btw really like the discussion and the way you go about discussing. Thanks.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

No it doesn’t. Harassing people at their work over a social media post is too much.

What's really pathetic is when that harassment comes from an unnamed complainant via HR. People today don't have enough spine to confront you directly, they have to run to momma and tell on you behind your back.

 

[ButchPlz]

I am happy to explain where I am on it.

I don't like politicians. I don't like bureaucracy. I don't trust either. But my dislike and distrust is more about the inefficiency and waste of the organizations, and the lack of integrity and expanding government from the politicians.

I do not think for a second politicians or government agencies look to assassinate a domestic political rival. At the same time, I have no doubt they will do that abroad with certain people or groups deemed realistic threats. So when these events happen domestically, I ascribe them to a person on the margins of society finding opportunity in agencies that are bloated and wasteful.

I am sure this comes across as naive. And that's okay. I don't expect anyone to believe what I do. I just wanted to provide understanding if possible.

I just see (directly and daily, because of my work) how people are willing to throw others under the bus in Washington and across government. It's not a big leap to me to imagine they're willing to do "whatever it takes" to ensure they stay in power. Especially so when the target is not explicitly part of the machine.

EDIT: I also want to add that a malicious unwillingness to do what is correct is also part of my daily experience.

 

[DaddyChad]

Set up?

I don’t want to go overboard but damn it’s getting harder to say they knowingly allow an opportunity for him to be shot. Plenty of time to get him off stage or neutralize the threat.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

That 1 inch really cost them though.

I hope so. I hope anyone that buys puts loses money.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

Thanks, I understand you better. There are failures every event, I think. No event of this magnitude can be be perfectly secure. We only are aware of failures in those unique, rare moments someone is present and a failure relative to their plan is available.

Let me make an analogy. We only hear of gun violence. We rarely hear of defensive gun uses. Ask someone who casually consumes media, and they will say we have far more gun violence. Why? That is the only time there is "news" relative to gun uses. Turns out defensive gun uses are far more common than gun violence.

For me, the SS failures are similar. We are never aware when there are failures and there is not nefarious with ill intent at the event to exploit the failure. We are never aware of when the nefarious person is present and decides to not go through with plans because of the protective features encountered. We are only going to hear of those moments where failures, opportunity, and a nefarious person in attendance all line up.

eta, btw really like the discussion and the way you go fabout discussing. Thanks.

I'm sure there are failures at every event. I do not believe there are colossal failures at every event. I believe it is rare for the US Secret Service to have a single extreme failure. I do not believe they could have 12+ monumental failures at one event in relation to their #1 goal.

They have failsafes and dozens of highly trained operatives on site. No way I will believe this many mistakes were made by the Secret Service in relation to stopping a sniper against a US President on American soil without some sort of influence causing the failures.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

This is a failure from the top down. (Tl/dr)

1. The overall risk assessment was flawed. RFK had no detail based on historical precedent and I will bet the size of Trump's detail is based on prior precedent. RFK isnt Jill Stein and Trump isnt Mitt Romney. The fact that campaigns are asking for more resources is not a good sign the risk analyses are fluid.

2. The local plan that day (signed off by Field Office + supervisor) was flawed. Safe to say that.

3. Staffing is an issue. Per CBS, they had a 48% departure rate last year. Washington Post says most agents have less than 3 years experience. Employee engagement scores last year were worst in SS history, had historically low rates for opinion on leadership, and in the bottom 10% of all federal agencies.

4. Jill Biden and Kamala had separate rallies in PA Saturday. Joe was in nearby Delaware. RNC began Monday.

Ultimately, the buck stops with Cheatle. This wasnt a highly trained operative that hit a lucky shot from the fringes of a perimeter. She is respsonsible for the risk analysis, her direct reports approved the site plan on 7/13, she is responsible for hiring, retaining, and creating a work environment for her Dept. She clearly has no idea what is going on now and exudes no confidence. You layer this on with 4 high risk targets in relatively small area and you have recipe for disaster...

There is no way she should have a job and her continued employment is just a major sign that Biden is too impaired to do his job. Cheatle and Mayorkas needs to be fired ans Kamala needs to get the rest of the cabinet to invoke the 25th....

 

[StarRaider]

the cellphone vid of the usss hbic running away from repub senators is bizarro

 

[volinsd]

I just don't understand why people dismiss government malice so easily now, especially after the last few years.

I think it has to do with not enough tv shows, movies, and social media videos discussing all the bad things the government has been caught doing since the 40s.

There are alot of tv shows, movies, and social media videos about people acting crazy with groups of people egging them on though.

I think some things like that maybe? Don't know though, I'm in no way an expert on either how to live or how to act.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Sounds like in this case it was a hedge against an existing position moreso than a bet that the stock was going down.

It could also be that they are long the DJT shares as the hedge for speculative put buying. I’d like to see the dates that they close any of the put positions opened last week, when they bought the underlying DJT shares, and if they’ve already been in and out of DJT put options a few times. Also if they have short positions with DJT call options.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

It could also be that they are long the DJT shares as the hedge for speculative put buying. I’d like to see the dates that they close any of the put positions opened last week, when they bought the underlying DJT shares, and if they’ve already been in and out of DJT put options a few times. Also if they have short positions with DJT call options.

SEC FORM 13-F Information Table

www.sec.gov

Common for them to have large put option positions hedging long equity positions...

 

[StarRaider]

I don’t want to go overboard but damn it’s getting harder to say they knowingly allow an opportunity for him to be shot. Plenty of time to get him off stage or neutralize the threat.

The USSS had one job.

The USSS had knowledge of an active threat

The USSS failed

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

What Im afraid of is Daryl Gates 2.0. Gates was former LAPD boss who was in charge during Rodney King beatdown. He got forced to resign but allowed to stay on until replacement was found. Fast forward a few months, you got the verdict and the LAPD, still led by GATES, was so ill prepared for the riots that occurred....

What if 7/13 is just the beginning...

 

[n_huffhines]

The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications for minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system — i.e., citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. In a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure democracy," the majority is not restrained in this way and can impose its will on the minority.

I guess the Pledge of Allegiance did have a purpose…”and in the Republic for which it stands.”. Civics really needs to be required in schools; I see things like “why doesn’t President put in a new Supreme Court to support his agenda”; “why doesn’t the President pass a law”.

Executive, Legislative, Judicial. Congress makes the laws - legislates. The President sees to implementation of the laws Congress passes - executes them (and NOT in the definition of killing them‍). The Supreme Court verifies the laws are constitutional when questioned - adjudicates. No the Supreme Court does NOT make law - the times I have seen that claimed, anymore than Congress or the President, gets to make the ultimate decision of a law’s constitutionality.

Somehow, I may be wrong, but I think you already know all of the above. May be wrong, maybe you don’t. I’ve been surprised and disappointed before now.

---

wth.

We have democracy in America, do we not? Who said "pure democracy?" Do we currently have a "pure republic?" I say no, not impressed with the rule of law.

Yeah, "republic" is a more specific term explaining the structure of our government, but I don't think you understand that democracy has a much broader definition, and it is an umbrella term for our republic. Democracy literally means "power of the people" in Greek, and it just means that we are supposed to be governed by the will of the people, which is how our republic is designed.

 

[jmacvols1]

elon musk trying to clear things up...

 

[InVOLuntary]

It's really hard for me to believe the US Secret Service failed so many times in a row at the same event. . . failures that occured day after day and all pertaining to the same directive.

I might be convinced they failed once because of negligence. I can't believe they failed multiple times for days on end.

I'm struggling not thinking there is something behind this.

 

[jmacvols1]

I don't see anyone on the water tank..

 

[jmacvols1]

new video..

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

The bullet was captured on camera. No way with basic geometry it could have had that angle from that elevation (water tower).....

 

[StarRaider]

elon musk trying to clear things up...

thank goodness someone that gas is in charge of tweeter

 

[Majors]

Imagine being the stage crew SS members. Were they informed about the threat before they went out? While out there? If not you gotta be saying WTF? Who left me out here hanging? Are we just expendable?

Gotta be some real questioning going on within the SS when you learn the threat was known but POTUS wasn't told and they still let him go out.

Great question that needs an answer. Collateral damage?