War in Ukraine

The point of the question was not support of Russia..it simply that they are going after those that left the Soviet Union less then 30 years ago..and haven't made an aggressive move against anyone but them...so why would I need to find a war with Russia...when we have worked with them previously..stop funding those wars and watch them go away one way or another mid then attack the US then we are involved but until then stop wasting money on forgien wars..if Europe was worried about Russian aggression they would act like instead of letting us foot the hill.. that tells me they are not.

Why are you pinning so much on the fact that Russia is invading countries that they had invaded previously?

I'm sorry, I fail to see the relevance in terms why you believe that is an important factor in assuming that Russia won't invade anyone who wasn't formerly occupied by Russia, given the sheer number of NATO members, that were themselves once occupied by Russia.

As to the EU not "footing the bill", you're either willfully ignorant, or just disingenuous; please educate yourself.

 
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From what you have shared earlier we have entered into an agreement with Ukraine to guarantee certain things. Someone else used the word assure. In an effort to not to quibble on semantics, has what we have guaranteed or assured Ukraine been specified in totals (financial support, equipment, etc)? And has the speed or pace we will uphold our end of the agreement been specified?

The strategic ambiguity of the wording of the Budapest Memorandum has been argued ad nauseum, and not always by 'conservatives' in argument against helping Ukraine.

What can't be argued, is the material loss incurred by Ukraine in order to comply with the requirements of the agreement. If that agreement, is not, and was not binding in providing security for the protection of their territorial sovereignty, then they should be compensated for their losses in complying with the agreement.

I don't care how we do it, we can do it with weapons, defense funds, we can even liquidate Russia's assets and give them to Ukraine since it's Russia that initially violated the agreement.
 
Why are you pinning so much on the fact that Russia is invading countries that they had invaded previously?

I'm sorry, I fail to see the relevance in terms why you believe that is an important factor in assuming that Russia won't invade anyone who wasn't formerly occupied by Russia, given the sheer number of NATO members, that were themselves once occupied by Russia.

As to the EU not "footing the bill", you're either willfully ignorant, or just disingenuous; please educate yourself.

Because people like you fear monger that Russia will not stop at Ukraine as a means to fund more pointless wars. Russia is not a threat to the US.

You should look at all the charts..when you added all formed of aid we double the EU.. military, financial, and humanitarian..So ya if the EU is worried they need to step up.
 
Because people like you fear monger that Russia will not stop at Ukraine as a means to fund more pointless wars. Russia is not a threat to the US.

You should look at all the charts..when you added all formed of aid we double the EU.. military, financial, and humanitarian..So ya if the EU is worried they need to step up.
Huge difference between saying Russia can't invade us and saying Russia isn't a threat. Russia is unquestionably a hostile country who views us as an enemy and a direct military threat to multiple American allies.

Now nobody can make you personally give a **** about any of those countries or anyone other than yourself, but Russia is certainly a threat.
 
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Huge difference between saying Russia can't invade us and saying Russia isn't a threat. Russia is unquestionably a hostile country who views us as an enemy and a direct military threat to multiple American allies.

Now nobody can make you personally give a **** about any of those countries or anyone other than yourself, but Russia is certainly a threat.
What other counties have they acted aggressively against besides those that were in the USSR??? None..so where is the threat?? To corrupt countries that were mostly Russian anyway?
 
The strategic ambiguity of the wording of the Budapest Memorandum has been argued ad nauseum, and not always by 'conservatives' in argument against helping Ukraine.

What can't be argued, is the material loss incurred by Ukraine in order to comply with the requirements of the agreement. If that agreement, is not, and was not binding in providing security for the protection of their territorial sovereignty, then they should be compensated for their losses in complying with the agreement.

I don't care how we do it, we can do it with weapons, defense funds, we can even liquidate Russia's assets and give them to Ukraine since it's Russia that initially violated the agreement.
I don't understand.
Is the amount of help or the timeline for delivery specified in the agreement?
 
What other counties have they acted aggressively against besides those that were in the USSR??? None..so where is the threat?? To corrupt countries that were mostly Russian anyway?
Yeah, I’m not okay ceding the independence of millions of democratic allies to a state which considers us an enemy just because I personally will be fine. And even if you are fine with that, the last sentence of your post indicates you don’t really have the knowledge base to adequately participate in this discussion.
 
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Yeah, I’m not okay ceding the independence of millions of democratic allies to a state which considers us an enemy just because I personally will be fine. And even if you are fine with that, the last sentence of your post indicates you don’t really have the knowledge base to adequately participate in this discussion.
Ukraine Is under a dictator. Russia was an ally previously. And Russia only considered Dems and liberals enemies
 
Ukraine Is under a dictator. Russia was an ally previously. And Russia only considered Dems and liberals enemies
Wait a minute.

Is that the reason we're seeing the support of Russia in this thread?
I must be a slow on the uptake because I had no idea
 
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Because people like you fear monger that Russia will not stop at Ukraine as a means to fund more pointless wars. Russia is not a threat to the US.

You should look at all the charts..when you added all formed of aid we double the EU.. military, financial, and humanitarian..So ya if the EU is worried they need to step up.

Russia, vehemently disagrees with your threat assessment.

Math isn't your strong suit is it, no worries, you can always concentrate on art.

US military aid: $50.4 billion
EU military aid: $47.39 billion

US financial aid: $21 billion
EU financial aid: $43.19 billion

US humanitarian aid: $2.6 billion
EU humanitarian aid: $8.12 billion

Just as a recap, we've given Ukraine roughly $2.5 billion more in military aid, $22 billion less in financial aid, and $ 5.6 billion less in humanitarian aid than the EU.

So you can stop complaining about Europe to paying their fair share on the Ukrainian aid front.
 
Come on now.
I'm not saying it isn't flimsy.. but it is accurate. They are corrupt and currently stopped any elections which is a dictatorship..we have yet to see if they will have elections after the war or not
@McDad I don't support Russia or Ukraine. I don't want the US involved.
 
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Ukraine Is under a dictator. Russia was an ally previously. And Russia only considered Dems and liberals enemies
happy-days-the-fonz.gif
 
I'm not saying it isn't flimsy.. but it is accurate. They are corrupt and currently stopped any elections which is a dictatorship..we have yet to see if they will have elections after the war or not
@McDad I don't support Russia or Ukraine. I don't want the US involved.
Are you sympathetic to Russia or Putin because they hate the libs and the Ds?
 
I don't understand.
Is the amount of help or the timeline for delivery specified in the agreement?

Has Ukraine's sovereignty been compromised? Yes? Then I'd say we're obligated to aid them until that breach of sovereignty is remedied, given that a signatory to the memorandum is responsible for the violation.

Again, if we don't want to adhere to the agreement, we can provide them with compensation for the losses they incurred by complying with the agreement, and call it null and void.
 
Has Ukraine's sovereignty been compromised? Yes? Then I'd say we're obligated to aid them until that breach of sovereignty is remedied, given that a signatory to the memorandum is responsible for the violation.

Again, if we don't want to adhere to the agreement, we can provide them with compensation for the losses they incurred by complying with the agreement, and call it null and void.

You are aware that I haven't argued that there is no agreement or that we shouldn't abide by the agreement or the points you've made about Ukraine compromising their defensive capability, correct?

I am asking if the agreement you are referencing outlines the total and the time for the agreement to be fulfilled. Do you have an answer?
 
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Details about the agreement ...

Memorandum Language and Assurances: Binding or Not?

One of the valuable insights about the Budapest Memorandum’s security assurances that we gleaned from the event was that, as former U.S. diplomats explained, Washington was simply not prepared in the early 1990s to accept a legally binding document with provisions akin to NATO’s Article 5. In contrast, Ukrainian officials had hoped for security guarantees, rather than mere assurances, and many of them have been deeply disappointed that the memorandum’s Western signatories have not done more to protect Ukraine, especially in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Crimea, according to the Ukrainian diplomats in attendance.

James Timbie, part of the State Department negotiating team who readied the memorandum for signing, remembers “vividly” that then-Secretary of State James Baker was “adamant” that the U.S. would not provide Ukraine with security guarantees—one of the three things Kyiv had wanted, along with assistance in dismantling its nuclear-weapons complex and compensation for the enriched uranium and plutonium on its territory. For the U.S., a top priority after the Soviet break-up was to have only one nuclear state succeed the USSR; Washington wouldn’t agree to a legally binding document on Ukraine’s security, Timbie said. What Baker did agree to eventually was to reaffirm earlier U.S. commitments made in documents like the Helsinki Final Act, the U.N. Charter and the Charter of Paris. This is why, Timbie explained, the Budapest Memorandum says its signatories “reaffirm” various commitments and obligations, rather than agreeing to new ones. There was a lot of checking with lawyers on language, he added.

Steven Pifer, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who also took part in the memorandum negotiations, expanded on Timbie’s point, highlighting that the document offers “assurances” not “guarantees”—a meaningful distinction in American legalese.
The document was signed in three languages by all heads of state of the countries involved. The English is the only one that uses the word assurances the Ukrainian and Russian version says guarantees.

It’s an absolutely horribly written and vague document. But it was signed by all parties and property of significant value was surrendered.
 
Can you understand it doesn't feel analogous to me mainly because Germany invaded and defeated their neighbors in a blitz while Russia is taking a decade or longer?
Curious. Russia *tried* to blitz Ukraine but failed.

So is Russia not like Germany simply because it's armed forces are inferior?

Russian *intent* is identical to Nazi Germany's. This should be a concern to anyone.

And oh BTW Russia is playing the nuclear card daily now.
 
Curious. Russia *tried* to blitz Ukraine but failed.

So is Russia not like Germany simply because it's armed forces are inferior?

Russian *intent* is identical to Nazi Germany's.
Trusting your opinion on the first and last sentences, to answer your question... that is likely the biggest part of the feeling for me.

Russia ability to wage war looks on par with Biden's ability to walk/talk/comprehend.
 
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This is my basic view on it. It's a European problem and they should be funding Ukraine's defense if they believe a Russian victory there will lead to further aggression.
Hogg I find your worldview mystifying.

At what point does a war in Europe become our problem (i.e. require our involvement)?

Laying down odds on your answer being: never.
 
Has Ukraine's sovereignty been compromised? Yes? Then I'd say we're obligated to aid them until that breach of sovereignty is remedied, given that a signatory to the memorandum is responsible for the violation.

Again, if we don't want to adhere to the agreement, we can provide them with compensation for the losses they incurred by complying with the agreement, and call it null and void.

How far should our aid go?
 
Curious. Russia *tried* to blitz Ukraine but failed.

So is Russia not like Germany simply because it's armed forces are inferior?

Russian *intent* is identical to Nazi Germany's. This should be a concern to anyone.

And oh BTW Russia is playing the nuclear card daily now.

Yeah, Germany is far more capable as an aggressor than Russia from a capability perspective AND

although Russia is aggressive, their goals are far more limited and less nefarious than Hitler.

IMO, Putin just wants to make Russia a world power again by retaking former Republics of the USSR (or making them vassals) while Hitler literally wanted to kill most the Slavic people of Europe and replace them with Germans on their lands (well maybe not kill them but drive them out of Eastern Europe).
 
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Bush did take action (albeit not direct action) he authorized us military transport planes to fly aid into Georgia and also transported Georgian troops and equipment back to Georgia from Afghanistan. It was under Obama that Russia carved out two provinces and got away with it.

What actions did Bush take against Russia after the 2008 invasion of Georgia? I can't find a list of sanctions that Bush imposed, or any significant political repercussions.

While I think Obama's response was not strong enough after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, he did at least impose sanctions on Russia.
 
Trusting your opinion on the first and last sentences, to answer your question... that is likely the biggest part of the feeling for me.

Russia ability to wage war looks on par with Biden's ability to walk/talk/comprehend.
Yet Russia *is* advancing now. Slow for sure and their losses are horrific by Western standards, but Putin doesn't GAF. And Russia has recently adopted federal budgets effectively putting it on war footing... Doubling its defense budget.

Putin's timeframe extends well beyond our 4 year prez cycles. He owns Russia.
 
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