2024 Presidential Race

#18,127
#18,127
hog88 said:
That is exactly what a protest is, a peaceful assembly addressing grievances.
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No it isn't, a peaceful assembly is gathering in a place you are lawfully entitled to be at and talking. It would be like a political meeting or event. So a great example is that there are "Conservative Meetings" in my county ever month, that is peacefully assembling. Campaigning is peacefully assembling. Trump's rallies (even if distasteful) are peaceful assemblies. Heck, I would argue that MLK Jr's marches fit that definition as well.

Blocking a road or access to a facility is not "peaceful assembly". Now I would argue that not all of the Palestinian Protests are violent or even fit my definition. I can agree on that.

Basically, where it goes to far is if someone blocks a road (without a city permit) or access to a facility, that is no longer peaceful. Also committing any basic crime such as vandalism, theft, harassment, etc.
 
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#18,128
#18,128
MemphisVol77 said:
Back then, those guys were mostly battle hardened WW1 vets that had lost everything. They were living in a shattered state with opportunity nowhere, fighting for control of insufficient resources.

Just no comparison.
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And you don't think the battle hardened veterans of 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan that are living in a shattered state with no opportunity are any different?

It's actually worse today.
 
#18,129
#18,129
volbound1700 said:
No it isn't, a peaceful assembly is gathering in a place you are lawfully entitled to be at and talking. It would be like a political meeting or event. So a great example is that there are "Conservative Meetings" in my county ever month, that is peacefully assembling. Campaigning is peacefully assembling. Trump's rallies (even if distasteful) are peaceful assemblies. Heck, I would argue that MLK Jr's marches fit that definition as well.

Blocking a road or access to a facility is not "peaceful assembly". Now I would argue that not all of the Palestinian Protests are violent or even fit my definition. I can agree on that.

Basically, where it goes to far is if someone blocks a road (without a city permit) or access to a facility, that is no longer peaceful. Also committing any basic crime such as vandalism, theft, harassment, etc.
Click to expand...

I agree with the bold. Assembling in a park or other public area to chant, yell, display displeasure at the .gov is a protest and you want to ban that.
 
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#18,130
#18,130
volbound1700 said:
No it isn't, a peaceful assembly is gathering in a place you are lawfully entitled to be at and talking. It would be like a political meeting or event. So a great example is that there are "Conservative Meetings" in my county ever month, that is peacefully assembling. Campaigning is peacefully assembling. Trump's rallies (even if distasteful) are peaceful assemblies. Heck, I would argue that MLK Jr's marches fit that definition as well.

Blocking a road or access to a facility is not "peaceful assembly". Now I would argue that not all of the Palestinian Protests are violent or even fit my definition. I can agree on that.

Basically, where it goes to far is if someone blocks a road (without a city permit) or access to a facility, that is no longer peaceful. Also committing any basic crime such as vandalism, theft, harassment, etc.
Click to expand...
I'm just citing the first thing I hit but tell us what you think.

 
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#18,131
#18,131
hog88 said:
I agree with the bold. Assembling in a park or other public area to chant, yell, display displeasure at the .gov is a protest and you want to ban that.
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I can agree to that but modern protests are usually not that. Any action were they are confronting people, blocking people, or threatening people shouldn't be tolerated.

I also think they should be getting permits. So in this instance, the pro-Palestinians should have petition Columbia for permission and came on campus the right way. I would be fine with that.

To be fair, these protests don't bother me near as much as BLM protests. That should have never been tolerated. The ones in our area were peaceful so fine with that but the looting and taking over of cities was ridiculous.
 
#18,132
#18,132
hndog609 said:
I'm just citing the first thing I hit but tell us what you think.

Click to expand...

Key Statement:

Governments can't deny a person's constitutional right to protest peacefully. However, the government may regulate the time, place, and manner in which a protest happens.

i.e. these groups are required to get permits and apply with city standards (in most case it is City/County governments you are supposed to engage with).

However, protests are typically "hostile" and outside of government regulation. I would argue protests, by definition, are not peaceful assemblies. So perhaps we (well not necessarily you and I but other posters that I am talking to) may disagree on what is a protest.
 
#18,133
#18,133
volbound1700 said:
I can agree to that but modern protests are usually not that. Any action were they are confronting people, blocking people, or threatening people shouldn't be tolerated.

I also think they should be getting permits. So in this instance, the pro-Palestinians should have petition Columbia for permission and came on campus the right way. I would be fine with that.

To be fair, these protests don't bother me near as much as BLM protests. That should have never been tolerated. The ones in our area were peaceful so fine with that but the looting and taking over of cities was ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I just can't understand why anyone would want to ask the government for permission to exercise their rights.

These "modern" protests are illegal, we already have laws on the books addressing those actions, more laws aren't going to mean they will be enforced.
 
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#18,134
#18,134
volbound1700 said:
Key Statement:

Governments can't deny a person's constitutional right to protest peacefully. However, the government may regulate the time, place, and manner in which a protest happens.

i.e. these groups are required to get permits and apply with city standards (in most case it is City/County governments you are supposed to engage with).

However, protests are typically "hostile" and outside of government regulation. I would argue protests, by definition, are not peaceful assemblies. So perhaps we (well not necessarily you and I but other posters that I am talking to) may disagree on what is a protest.
Click to expand...

Me: I want to assemble a group to protest against your unjust actions. Please

Gov: No

Yeah that is the spirit of the 1A
 
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#18,135
#18,135
hog88 said:
I just can't understand why anyone would want to ask the government for permission to exercise their rights.

These "modern" protests are illegal, we already have laws on the books addressing those actions, more laws aren't going to mean they will be enforced.
Click to expand...

This is the proper means. When you do a city function (let's say a parade), you petition the city for the parade. The city can then designate a time and date that best fits the need for the event.

This PROTECTS other Citizens. That is the logic. Protests often **** on other people's rights that aren't involved. For these protests, for example, students of the school are impacted.

With BLM, it was store owners, pedestrians, motorists, etc. that were impacted.

The reason you petition the city/county government is to have an event that doesn't harm the general community.
 
#18,136
#18,136
Grand Vol said:
And you don't think the battle hardened veterans of 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan that are living in a shattered state with no opportunity are any different?
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No, because I don't think they were apart of his comparison. We we're talking about the gaza/arab protests occuring at ivy league colleges. I specifically tried to point out that they were removed from the realities of war.
Grand Vol said:
It's actually worse today.
Click to expand...
That I was unaware of. How so?
Is their veteran's benefits and medical access worse than that of the Wheimers post ww1 soldiers?
 
#18,137
#18,137
volbound1700 said:
Key Statement:

Governments can't deny a person's constitutional right to protest peacefully. However, the government may regulate the time, place, and manner in which a protest happens.

i.e. these groups are required to get permits and apply with city standards (in most case it is City/County governments you are supposed to engage with).

However, protests are typically "hostile" and outside of government regulation. I would argue protests, by definition, are not peaceful assemblies. So perhaps we (well not necessarily you and I but other posters that I am talking to) may disagree on what is a protest.
Click to expand...
From the article:

One of the court's holdings is that any licensing requirement for "free expression in publicly owned places" is unconstitutional if not narrowly defined and objectively applied.

So it's not carte blanche. What we're getting at is the idea of a "protest" is absolutely a Constitutionally protected part of the 1A. There are reasonable limitations which goes back to the point made by Hogg and others that our issue here is enforcing of the laws that do regulate what isn't protected. Curtailing what IS protected to try and better regulate isn't doesn't seem like a valid or wise approach.
 
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#18,138
#18,138
hndog609 said:
From the article:

One of the court's holdings is that any licensing requirement for "free expression in publicly owned places" is unconstitutional if not narrowly defined and objectively applied.

So it's not carte blanche. What we're getting at is the idea of a "protest" is absolutely a Constitutionally protected part of the 1A. There are reasonable limitations which goes back to the point made by Hogg and others that our issue here is enforcing of the laws that do regulate what isn't protected. Curtailing what IS protected to try and better regulate isn't doesn't seem like a valid or wise approach.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
#18,139
#18,139
MemphisVol77 said:
No, because I don't think they were apart of his comparison. We we're talking about the gaza/arab protests occuring at ivy league colleges. I specifically tried to point out that they were removed from the realities of war.

That I was unaware of. How so?
Is their veteran's benefits and medical access worse than that of the Wheimers post ww1 soldiers?
Click to expand...

I missed the comparison of the college protestors.

But yes, the care given to veterans is typically abysmal. First the wait time is horrid and second the car just isn't that good.

But if you look at what started the national socialist movement and compare it to what we're going through currently, yes, there is a direct comparison. I'm not going to invoke Godwin's Law here, but the indicators are there on both sides of the argument.
 
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#18,140
#18,140
Our pathetic POTUS comes out from his basement to read what's on his teleprompter ...
Nice word salad he presents but still too little too late. He's still leading from behind.

 
Last edited:
#18,141
#18,141
Grand Vol said:
I missed the comparison of the college protestors.

But yes, the care given to veterans is typically abysmal. First the wait time is horrid and second the car just isn't that good.

But if you look at what started the national socialist movement and compare it to what we're going through currently, yes, there is a direct comparison. I'm not going to invoke Godwin's Law here, but the indicators are there on both sides of the argument.
Click to expand...
I'm no economist so the scope of adjusting for inflation is well beyond me, but I wonder how our debt compares to what they were carrying when the stock market crashed?

They had a world class industrial infrastructure but were resources poor when their currency crashed. We are not the same.
We are resource rich and still have world class...... Wait a 2nd. Where did that infrastructure go?

Still not the same. We would never over extend our armory and munitions into the Ukrai... Oh fudge!
Still not gonna invoke it.

I never really thought keeping us out of war was much of a flex for Trump to brag about.
I'm starting to think Biden sucks.
 
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#18,144
#18,144
volbound1700 said:
No it isn't, a peaceful assembly is gathering in a place you are lawfully entitled to be at and talking. It would be like a political meeting or event. So a great example is that there are "Conservative Meetings" in my county ever month, that is peacefully assembling. Campaigning is peacefully assembling. Trump's rallies (even if distasteful) are peaceful assemblies. Heck, I would argue that MLK Jr's marches fit that definition as well.

Blocking a road or access to a facility is not "peaceful assembly". Now I would argue that not all of the Palestinian Protests are violent or even fit my definition. I can agree on that.

Basically, where it goes to far is if someone blocks a road (without a city permit) or access to a facility, that is no longer peaceful. Also committing any basic crime such as vandalism, theft, harassment, etc.
Click to expand...
You're being hard headed on this issue. We all dig in our heels at some point. So no offense intended about being hard headed because it applies to me as well.

Everything in your first paragraph applies to protests, too.

Blocking roads, blocking access, blocking freedom of movement crosses the line to illegal (we just don't enforce it). Crimes are not part of the protected rights.

You've connected things because we see them a lot via the media. But proper protests (peaceful protests) do happen without any criminality or illegality.
 
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#18,145
#18,145
McDad said:
You're being hard headed on this issue. We all dig in our heels at some point. So no offense intended about being hard headed because it applies to me as well.

Everything in your first paragraph applies to protests, too.

Blocking roads, blocking access, blocking freedom of movement crosses the line to illegal (we just don't enforce it). Crimes are not part of the protected rights.

You've connected things because we see them a lot via the media. But proper protests (peaceful protests) do happen without any criminality or illegality.
Click to expand...

You, hog88, and the hndog are correct, I am really frustrated about the criminal acts but I am shooting the whole system over it. I don't have any issues with the peaceful use of it.
 
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#18,146
#18,146
volbound1700 said:
You, hog88, and the hndog are correct, I am really frustrated about the criminal acts but I am shooting the whole system over it. I don't have any issues with the peaceful use of it.
Click to expand...
Glad to hear it. Your argument was similar in the way the gun grabbers attempt to corrupt 2A for their vile schemes.
 
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#18,147
#18,147
volbound1700 said:
You, hog88, and the hndog are correct, I am really frustrated about the criminal acts but I am shooting the whole system over it. I don't have any issues with the peaceful use of it.
Click to expand...

That's right. Me and McDad are always correct. We covered that a few days ago, consensus was we're the smartest.
 
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