War in Ukraine

[volbound1700]

Oh, not sure anyone is giving up anything.... in that case they will just keep pushing west and flatten it. This isn't nation building, this really isn't going to be occupying, imo.

I don't see Russia being able to take Kiev or any of the major cities. It would take them a decade to get there and frankly, Russia already fell on its face trying to do that.

EDIT:




So they would have to probably give up most of the lands that are Green and I think that area around the lack to the East so around Berdyansk and Mariupol.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I don't see Russia being able to take Kiev or any of the major cities. It would take them a decade to get there and frankly, Russia already fell on its face trying to do that.

They don't have to take Kiev, they will just flatten it... this isn't nation building, its the largest demolition project in human history. It could take a decade or two, I would say that is on the long end if somehow the Ukraine can generate new meat and artillery. However, that is seeming more unlikely as time goes on.

 

[BeardedVol]

The intend at another point was just to have Poland annex or invade western Ukraine

Lol, you really are trying to compete with @volgr for posting the most nonsensical regurgitations of Kremlin disinformation, aren't you?

Oh, the Irony…Russia Spreads Disinformation about Polish Annexation of Western Ukrainian Regions

Days after an errant Ukrainian missile tragically killed two civilians in Poland, Russian state-sponsored media began reporting on a strange conspiracy theory—that Poland wants to annex three counties in western Ukraine. ASD at GMF’s Yandex Dashboard shows that from November 30 to December 1...

securingdemocracy.gmfus.org

 

[LSU-SIU]

Lol, you really are trying to compete with @volgr for posting the most nonsensical regurgitations of Kremlin disinformation, aren't you?

Oh, the Irony…Russia Spreads Disinformation about Polish Annexation of Western Ukrainian Regions

Days after an errant Ukrainian missile tragically killed two civilians in Poland, Russian state-sponsored media began reporting on a strange conspiracy theory—that Poland wants to annex three counties in western Ukraine. ASD at GMF’s Yandex Dashboard shows that from November 30 to December 1...

securingdemocracy.gmfus.org

You and your stupid bar charts and articles you can't comprehend.Someone taught you how to google but not how to comprehend.

 

[volbound1700]

They don't have to take Kiev, they will just flatten it... this isn't nation building, its the largest demolition project in human history. It could take a decade or two, I would say that is on the long end if somehow the Ukraine can generate new meat and artillery. However, that is seeming more unlikely as time goes on.

Actually at the rate they are going, it would take a Century. The distance between Kiev and the front line is longer than the state of Tennessee.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Actually at the rate they are going, it would take a Century. The distance between Kiev and the front line is longer than the state of Tennessee.

Well, if only if someone was to believe the Ukrainians lost 31,000 troops. Without fresh meat and shells for many years to come.... there will be no way of maintaining what they have. They can delay it with meat and shells but hard to imagine how that will happen at this time. We'll see.

 

[volbound1700]

Well, if only if someone was to believe the Ukrainians lost 31,000 troops. Without fresh meat and shells for many years to come.... there will be no way of maintaining what they have. They can delay it with meat and shells but hard to imagine how that will happen at this time. We'll see.

31,000 out of 33 Million?

Heck, France lost 4-6 Million Troops in WW1 and was still holding.

Germany lost 12 Million and USSR lost 20 Million in WW2. This war can go on a long time.

 

[LSU-SIU]

31,000 out of 33 Million?

Heck, France lost 4-6 Million Troops in WW1 and was still holding.

Germany lost 12 Million and USSR lost 20 Million in WW2. This war can go on a long time.

You made a believer out of me. Good luck, kiddo. -The Oracle

I'm glad the Ukraine is doing so well, I can keep my tax dollars and they can keep enjoying their sovereignty - sounds like heaven.

 

[BeardedVol]

You and your stupid bar charts and articles you can't comprehend.Someone taught you how to google but not how to comprehend.

Ironic coming from you, considering that you just literally regurgitated Russian disinformation that's been debunked numerous times.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Ironic coming from you, considering that you just literally regurgitated Russian disinformation that's been debunked numerous times.

No bar chart in your post, no read.

 

[BeardedVol]

No bar chart in your post, no read.

Here you go champ; I know you need the practice.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Here you go champ; I know you need the practice.

View attachment 634736

I have no interest in contributing to discussion on why Living Dinosaurs Sales are not picking up for Dinosaurs R' Us.

I'm just glad the Ukrainians don't need anymore money from the United States taxpayer. Rambo doesn't need any money, Bowie Knife is all he needs. Rambo is probably on the outskirts of Moscow right now.

 

[LouderVol]

Well, if only if someone was to believe the Ukrainians lost 31,000 troops. Without fresh meat and shells for many years to come.... there will be no way of maintaining what they have. They can delay it with meat and shells but hard to imagine how that will happen at this time. We'll see.

your argument is that Russia is flattening everything. Not just the meat. Do you think this is a video game where killing a person magically removes a random building from the country? If the Russians are really flattening the countryside it doesn't matter how many Ukrainians are left to defend it, its a lot of area.

A 155mm shell has a kill area of 50 meters, that doesn't even mean it will flatten everything in a 50m area. There is 603,628,000,000 square meters of Ukraine. Thats 12+ BILLION shells, assuming it does actually flatten the entire area. Depending on how many artillery pieces Russia has that is each one firing several million shells each. In the US a barrel can sustain 2500 rounds before becoming a danger to the crew. lets assume these are super cereal Russian guns and not sissy American guns, and can survive 5000 rounds, you are looking at least 200 barrel changes for EACH artillery piece.

For a little perspective, during WW1, on the western front, where there were tens of thousands of artillery pieces firing everyday, almost continuously for the better part of 4 years, by both sides, about 4 billion square meters were destroyed. But somehow Russia is going to destroy 150x that in a decade, all by itself, with far far fewer artillery pieces. And oh yeah 155mm would have been pretty small by WW1 standards.

I love putting the claims into perspective, shows how absolutely crazy they are.

 

[LSU-SIU]

your argument is that Russia is flattening everything. Not just the meat. Do you think this is a video game where killing a person magically removes a random building from the country? If the Russians are really flattening the countryside it doesn't matter how many Ukrainians are left to defend it, its a lot of area.

You don't have to flatten the countryside - duh, why would someone destroy a hay field with nobody in it? You destroy everything that is standing in which is used to hide in (or the population can be in).... seems to be working but I said it could take some time. Years or decades. One village, town, and city at a time. Both Israel and the Russians have figured out its easier to just flatten.... Russia has the biggest flattening job in the history man.... could take decades unless the other side runs out of meat or shells.

There won't be anything to rebuild along this front as it moves west.

I love putting the claims into perspective, shows how absolutely crazy they are.

No, you setup a stupid strawman, but you made a believer out of me.... I think the Ukraine is going to see a ton of sovereignty in their future. They're just getting started on their sovereignty.


The war machine is just getting warmed up, the deal today won't be available tomorrow.

 

[LouderVol]

You don't have to flatten the countryside - duh, why would someone destroy a hay field with nobody in it? You destroy everything that is standing in which is used to hide in.... seems to be working but I said it could take some time. Years or decades. One village, town, and city at a time. Both Israel and the Russians have figured out its easier to just flatten.... Russia has the biggest flattening job in history man.



No, you setup a stupid strawman, but you made a believer out of me.... I think the Ukraine is going to see a ton of sovereignty in their future.

oh don't run away from your masterful predictions so easily, you said Russia was going to flatten everything.

you ever been to a countryside? Plenty of area to hide in. even if its tall grass you can hide in it. Wheat grows 4 ft tall, and Ukraine is a huge exporter of it. 4ft is plenty to hide in. Any type of trees and you have concealment and theoretically some cover from small arms. A fold in the ground of more than a foot and you can effectively hide in it. a fence line, hedgerow, ditch, railroad, raised road, all of those are very common battlefield features that give excellent fighting positions to either side. Heck Stalingrad should be proof enough that even destroying a whole city often isn't enough.

 

[LSU-SIU]

oh don't run away from your masterful predictions so easily, you said Russia was going to flatten everything.

you ever been to a countryside? Plenty of area to hide in. even if its tall grass you can hide in it. Wheat grows 4 ft tall, and Ukraine is a huge exporter of it. 4ft is plenty to hide in. Any type of trees and you have concealment and theoretically some cover from small arms. A fold in the ground of more than a foot and you can effectively hide in it. a fence line, hedgerow, ditch, railroad, raised road, all of those are very common battlefield features that give excellent fighting positions to either side. Heck Stalingrad should be proof enough that even destroying a whole city often isn't enough.

Its already flat.

Jesus dude.

Under that stupid theory Stalingrad wasn't destroyed because there was some building left. What are you like 6 years old. I have a hard time telling in today's world if people are serious or not. (Hey Look LSU-SIU there is an outhouse that wasn't flattened in Chasiv Yar.... burrrrrnnnnnn!)

 

[PKT_VOL]

Yup, they would probably go through to Serbia in like 2 hours. Russia doesn't have that many goats, duh. I mean look the Ukraine has only lost like 30,000 troops. Just send those GI Joes in there right now. Man, its like you were a reincarnation of Patton with all your military knowledge.

Ukraine and Russia have both lost many folds more than 30K troops.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Ukraine and Russia have both lost many folds more than 30K troops.

Nope the Ukraine said they only lost 30k troops, I believe them... they are kicking ass and don't need any assistance. They have Moscow surrounded. Fairly soon, they will be able to pay me back from all the Russian assets they will obtain and they definitely don't need money.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Then WTF is all of this hand wringing about?

Question... how many NATO troops would you need to do what you are talking about? How long would it take to mobilize them?

Physically over Ukraine? ~100 give or take.

They could do exclusively via airpower. Logistics would be in NATO territory, Hell, a lot of the sorties could come via the Black Sea in international waters.

 

[PKT_VOL]

The overwhelming majority of nations outside of NATO would take the cheaper, more effective Russian weapons vs the more expensive, maintenance heavy American/Western equipment. And even Turkiye wants Russian S-400 air defense but the US/NATO wants to c*ckblock that.

Turkey was trying to have the best of both worlds. Cheap S-400 AD systems and their own fifth-generation airpower platform with accommodating drone program. Unfortunately, for the Turks, their fifth-generation program isn't going great and the S-400 isn't nearly as good as they had hoped. The one plus is that the Turks are reasonably good a drones.

As for the rest of the world outside of NATO, of course the Russian systems were attractive. Most of the countries are not wealthy. Russian systems provide a lot of quantity for less money and provide hedging against being overly reliant on the West. Unfortunately for Russia, this war has exposed their platforms to be vastly inferior than what was advertised. Countries like India have cooled on Russian programs and are actively pursuing their own domestic MIC programs.

 

[volfanhill]

People amaze me. This deep thinker was 1000% wrong on everything Will Wade and LSU related. Was told he was wrong by numerous people. Dug his feet in and mocked everyone. Then was proven to be 1000% wrong. One of the most public examples of hubris and cockyness ever on display here. You'd think he learn. Most people would learn from that. Nope. Not this mental giant. This is Will Wade 2.0 for this clown.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Physically over Ukraine? ~100 give or take.

Dude, we needed 350k and mobilized for 6 months leading to Desert Storm and that was in a country that is 1/3 or 1/4 the size of Ukraine. We needed 550k at the peak of Vietnam against a non-conventional force.

At a bare minimum, you would need over 1 million.

They could do exclusively via airpower.

Leaning heavily on airpower is not going to do anything. Israelis are finding that out in Gaza, and the US found it out in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Syria.

Logistics would be in NATO territory, Hell, a lot of the sorties could come via the Black Sea in international waters.

The Russians would destroy the logistics in thos NATO countries the minute you start to gather troops. Even in your 100k assumption, that would be easy to detect. The moment one toe crosses over into Ukraine, those logistic sites become military targets.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Turkey was trying to have the best of both worlds. Cheap S-400 AD systems and their own fifth-generation airpower platform with accommodating drone program.

WTF is wrong with that? Is Turkiye not a sovereign country? It only makes sense for sovereign countries to keep all available options open. Just like the trade deal in 2013 for Ukraine, the US wants countries to pick a side, and not engage in pragmatic policies that are in their best interests.

As for the rest of the world outside of NATO, of course the Russian systems were attractive. Most of the countries are not wealthy. Russian systems provide a lot of quantity for less money and provide hedging against being overly reliant on the West. Unfortunately for Russia, this war has exposed their platforms to be vastly inferior than what was advertised. Countries like India have cooled on Russian programs and are actively pursuing their own domestic MIC programs.

You don't think that one factor in some countries being hesitant is the idea of them being sanctioned or targeted by the US?

 

[volbound1700]

Dude, we needed 350k and mobilized for 6 months leading to Desert Storm and that was in a country that is 1/3 or 1/4 the size of Ukraine. We needed 550k at the peak of Vietnam against a non-conventional force.

At a bare minimum, you would need over 1 million.


Leaning heavily on airpower is not going to do anything. Israelis are finding that out in Gaza, and the US found it out in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Syria.


The Russians would destroy the logistics in thos NATO countries the minute you start to gather troops. Even in your 100k assumption, that would be easy to detect. The moment one toe crosses over into Ukraine, those logistic sites become military targets.

Air power is critical! It is why Hitler overran France in 1940. You point out the USA's wars but USA won easily ON THE BATTLEFIELD. What USA sucks at is putting down Guerillas/Insurgencies. The Nazis would do that by simply massacring anyone involved and having a very ruthless and efficient SS squads.

Soviets failed in Afghanistan as well so KGB is just as much a joke as the CIA when it came to dealing with the insurgents in Afghanistan.

It really makes Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan kind of see more impressive that they were able to take over and control so much land in a short period of time. It takes a massive level of cruelty to do that though and USA is not a CRUEL nation like the others listed.

Basically, people take advantage of USA's desire to protect civilians. Even Russia, despite being crueler than the USA, is no where near the level of cruelty of the Axis nations that I listed.

Germany would have won in Afghanistan but they would have literally done it by rounding up the families and anyone tied to or that gave support to the Taliban. Heck, they would probably kill people just for being in the area the Taliban patrolled.

 

[volbound1700]

BTW LSU-SIU guy, if Russia is trying to kill off the people, wouldn't it just be easier to use Biological/Chemical weaponry to kill off the people. You preserve the land that way.