War in Ukraine

#77,427
#77,427
KB5252 said:
No, not directly. But all that conflict happens within it's sphere of influence or the vacuum of it's former sphere of influence.
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The Soviets/Russians haven't had influence in that region since the 50s when Stalin kicked. They may have had some sway with one of the Balkan countries after 1991, but not much there overall.
 
#77,428
#77,428
Grand Vol said:
End of WWII - 1945.

Cold War - 1945-1991 not going to call that "peace." There wasn't open conflict (mostly) but living under the threat of war likely wasn't fun either.

Yugoslavia Wars - 1991-2001 way more to it than just the Kosovo Campaign.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yugoslav Wars - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

And Georgia isn't the only country with troubles in the Caucasus region. Or would you like to discuss Azerbaijan and Armenia going at it quite frequently?

Or the reason Russia invaded South Ossetia since we started talking about admitting them to NATO?

You can't sit there and just wrap single months or years around conflicts that go on for years (or almost a decade in the Balkans). Europe wasn't as "peaceful" as you think after WWII.
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You can move the goal posts all you want, it still won't change reality.
en.wikipedia.org

Pax Europaea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
#77,431
#77,431
BeardedVol said:
I don't ignore it. There are several conflicts that existed in this time period; they're listed in the article should you care to educate yourself.
View attachment 631916
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Oh, okay. So, nobody invaded reach other in Western Europe... guess the Soviets crushing Hungary and Czechoslovakia don't count.

And not even gonna mention the countless wars and conflicts the European nations were involved in during and after the Cold War outside of their borders.

Don't pretend Europe was all peaceful after WWII.
 
#77,432
#77,432
Grand Vol said:
Oh, okay. So, nobody invaded reach other in Western Europe... guess the Soviets crushing Hungary and Czechoslovakia don't count.

And not even gonna mention the countless wars and conflicts the European nations were involved in during and after the Cold War outside of their borders.

Don't pretend Europe was all peaceful after WWII.
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I'm not sure why you are trying to argue against the historical fact that there was relative peace in Europe from the end of World War 2, until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, in comparison to literally hundreds of years of cyclical warfare in Europe.

You seem to be grasping at straws to try to sate some desire to not be incorrect in your thinking, and I'd encourage you to read more on the subject rather then continue to do so, but you do you.
 
#77,433
#77,433
BeardedVol said:
You seem to be grasping at straws to try to sate some desire to not be incorrect in your thinking, and I'd encourage you to read more on the subject rather then continue to do so, but you do you.
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Oh please. I'm not the one ignoring evidence to the contrary.

Do your own homework, biscuit
 
#77,434
#77,434
BeardedVol said:
I'm not sure why you are trying to argue against the historical fact that there was relative peace in Europe from the end of World War 2, until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, in comparison to literally hundreds of years of cyclical warfare in Europe.

You seem to be grasping at straws to try to sate some desire to not be incorrect in your thinking, and I'd encourage you to read more on the subject rather then continue to do so, but you do you.
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Oh, you still haven't answered the question of why admitting Ukraine to NATO will help the US...
 
#77,437
#77,437
Grand Vol said:
So, answer my question...

What benefit is there to allowing Ukraine into NATO? Or Finland? Or Sweden?

Ukraine makes no sense at all for admission to NATO. Why even shove our hand into that hornets nest expecting to come up with honey? We pushed hard enough with Poland and the Baltic Republics and should have stopped there. Why even continue to provoke Russia in that fashion?

The only gain for that is with what Ras said. He and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of issues, but he's right in saying the only people that gain anything from the inevitable cold (or hot) conflict that comes from admitting Ukraine is the MIC and politicians who buy their stock and send them our tax dollars.

We've done enough over there and I have no desire to get recalled to Active Duty for some politician to add additional zeros at the end of their bank statements.
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download.jpeg
 
#77,438
#77,438
Grand Vol said:
Oh, you still haven't answered the question of why admitting Ukraine to NATO will help the US...
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You don't seem to understand the concept what a 'mutual defense treaty' is designed to accomplish.

Until you remedy yourself of that (willful) ignorance, I don't think you're capable of accepting any response that i could give you.
 
#77,439
#77,439
BeardedVol said:
You don't seem to understand the concept what a 'mutual defense treaty' is designed to accomplish.

Until you remedy yourself of that (willful) ignorance, I don't think you're capable of accepting any response that i could give you.
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You think this evasive post is going to earn you points...

But everyone can see you're avoiding the question.

Just admit that admitting Ukraine to NATO does nothing for our own national security and I'll stop making you look like a fool.
 
#77,442
#77,442
Grand Vol said:
You think this evasive post is going to earn you points...

But everyone can see you're avoiding the question.

Just admit that admitting Ukraine to NATO does nothing for our own national security and I'll stop making you look like a fool.
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Contrary to your belief, the US is not the only member of NATO, and not the only member with interests in who joins the organization.
 
#77,445
#77,445
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#77,447
#77,447
Grand Vol said:
I don't think Ukraine will remove the Russians from their territory without external help. That would actually take the effort of the country and as we've seen, they are too busy partying it up on our tax dollars to make it a national effort.

But again, why? Exactly what purpose would admitting them do for our security? To counter Russian aggression?

Same Russians who weren't that aggressive until we started planting NATO flags on their border? Even then, just generally grumbled about it and left it alone. But when Ukraine started taking about NATO, that's when the trouble started.

No, no reason to even talk about admitting Ukraine to the "family" just because we want to "contain" Russia. Same with Georgia. Same with Finland. Same with Sweden. The only country there that has any chance of making a case is Sweden since they were originally invited to join NATO in 1949. Of course, Sweden and Finland are a moot point now.

Otherwise, we've pushed far enough and poked the Bear enough as well.
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in 2008? They weren't any closer to joining NATO in 2014 than they were in 2008.

Your timeline doesn't work.
 
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#77,448
#77,448
LouderVol said:
in 2008? They weren't any closer to joining NATO in 2014 than they were in 2008.

Your timeline doesn't work.
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I was referring to more recent times.

But the talks in 2008 was in reaction to the Georgia invasion by Russia. Who was also talking about joining NATO.

Seems like Russia was drawing a line.
 
#77,449
#77,449
Grand Vol said:
And this concerns us how?

Look, NATO was needed after WWII since most Western European countries couldn't fend for themselves and needed a "big brother" to keep the Soviets at bay. They had the global dominating aspirations at the time and West Europe was ripe for an invasion

Then, in 1991, all that changed as the Soviet Union fell and the Russians started taking care of internal matters. We expanded NATO in that time to former Eastern Bloc countries felt the Soviets could come back quickly and they were weak. They needed to rebuild and thought they needed that "big brother" NATO provided.

Problem is, we kept moving eastward and pushing Russia into a corner. They didn't/don't have the global domination attitude seen under the Soviets. You eventually push someone far enough and they are going to push back.

Which is exactly what they have done in Ukraine and in Georgia.

Russians aren't as clean in this as they should be. But make no mistake, NATO and Western Europe are as much to blame as they are.
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except that is not what Putin has said on multiple occasions. He has directly expressed interests in reclaiming any previously held Russian territory. Even bringing up Alaska, and talking about old grudges with France. Granted the French thing was after their president ran his mouth. He has also expressed support for the expansionist goals of China, and North Korea.

Russia was in no worse shape in 2014 than they were in 1999. if anything they were far stronger in 2014, so trying to claim they were backed into a corner just ignores how Russian foreign policy has changed, and their new alliances.
 
#77,450
#77,450
They wont answer because it is FAR more than the Western Death Cult has propagandized to the lemmings.

 
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