AM64
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Official Gramps' Memorial Eternal OT Thread
- Thread starter Grand Vol
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volfanhill
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marcusluvsvols
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Its pretty hard to F up a roof too. I mean, if youre wealthy and have a mansion or McMansion with 8 or 10 different valleys, dormers everywhere, etc they can be complex. How a roof is flashed is important especially in situations like that. But most people who have a house between 1500sf and 3000sf ...3 or 4BR house is gonna be pretty simple. Main body is either a gable or a hip....and theres usually a gable or 2/ dormers on the front for street appeal. Maybe a bay window or 2. To shingle a roof like that is so simple a damn silverback could probably do it if you had the patience to teach them. It really is not complicated. For someone to have not lapped the shingles properly on your roof like you mentioned is gross negligence. So i guess they either popped their lines too far apart and dont have sufficient overlap...or didnt know how to weave a valley properly? I cant think of any other way a shingle roof would leak due to overlap issues? Like someone else mentioned, i would look into filing a claim against the home inspector service you used at closing. He has insurance. Even if he fights it and you have to get a lawyer it will be cheaper than paying to tear off all those old shingles and install a new roof. Should save you a bunch of $$$. Sorry to hear that brother.
volfanhill
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marcusluvsvols
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Would have to be massive water to rot your rafters/roof trusses so probably just the 1/2" (7/16 probably) plywood sheathing right? My wifes uncle was a roofer from when he came back from Nam until 2015 when he died and i used to work with him between jobs. He always charged a flat rate per sheet on replacing rotted plywood. These guys probably the same? Sucks you have to deal with that man.
McDad
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hog88
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LouderVol
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talk with your roofer. see about buying the sheathing yourself. get them to tell you what type (thickness) then just go to Home Depot and buy what you need. that will save you a good bit on the mark up. word to the wise, don't get osb, mdf, or some particles board crap, don't let the roofer sell you that crap either. if there is a chance it gets wet you want plywood. don't listen if they tell you its the same, and it will save you the money, they are straight lying to your face. the moment either of those two get wet, even from humidity they start to break down. exterior grade plywood will at least not immediately physically fall apart. if you look at most warranties on your roofing they will specify the substrate, and I would be shocked if the minimum is anything less than 7/16" plywood.
go ahead and assume at least a 10% overage on the costs of things, whether thats some mark up or price increase, or just them finding more issues. if its bad you may want to assume 20% just to cover yourself. Even if you have the 26k, coming up with another 2-5k can be rough.
LouderVol
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willing to bet the roofer did one of two things.
1. forgot to factor in any overhangs into the area, and just ordered shingles for the footprint of the house, and then just had to spread them out to fit.
2. didn't factor in the overlap, and saw the whole roof was X square footage and divided by the total area of the shingle panel.
LouderVol
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hill, be sure that 26k includes Ice & Water shield at all edges, change of directions of roofs, including valleys and peaks. don't let them just double layer the roof felt. also if your roof has some relatively small roof angles they may also need to double felt per the mnfr. if the water isn't moving fast enough off your roof, it will 100% find those weak points.
also if you have any steps in the roofing with wall, or chimneys, adjacent to the roof line, get step flashing, and have that installed along with the Ice & Water, and building felt, before the shingles go up.
don't let them tell you they can't get either of those, it takes too long to get/install, or its too expensive. if they can get it at Home Depot its not some overly designed doodad you need a degree to install. don't let them sell you any bs about "I have been doing this for 35 years and have never installed that stuff, and I have never had a leak." They are straight lying to your face. 35 years ago they hadn't heard of double paned windows, or insulation in walls. houses used to "breathe" and that let water in, but also out. now a days houses are much more closed up, and they have to do more to make sure things stay dry.
really getting into the weeds here, but depending on your attic insulation situation, you need to make sure that is getting air circulation. Unless you have insulation directly attached to the back side of ALL of the roof sheathing (plywood), the attic needs air movement. The ridge vents are pretty common, but you need to make sure you also have soffit vents, or some type of side wall venting. if you have the soffit vents you need to make sure you have baffles installed, they will fight you on this unless you push back. you need the baffles to keep the insulation from filling in between the low points of your roof trusses at the wall. you want at least 2" below the roof sheathing clear to the ridge vent. this will really help with rot, that keeps air moving at the plywood and trusses, and will really help dry those areas out. it won't stop a leak, but it should keep the leak from damaging the structural pieces too much.
also if you have any steps in the roofing with wall, or chimneys, adjacent to the roof line, get step flashing, and have that installed along with the Ice & Water, and building felt, before the shingles go up.
Step Flashing - Roof Flashing - The Home Depot
Get free shipping on qualified Step Flashing products or Buy Online Pick Up in Store today in the Building Materials Department.
www.homedepot.com
Search Results for ice and water shield at The Home Depot
Search Results for ice and water shield at The Home Depot
www.homedepot.com
don't let them tell you they can't get either of those, it takes too long to get/install, or its too expensive. if they can get it at Home Depot its not some overly designed doodad you need a degree to install. don't let them sell you any bs about "I have been doing this for 35 years and have never installed that stuff, and I have never had a leak." They are straight lying to your face. 35 years ago they hadn't heard of double paned windows, or insulation in walls. houses used to "breathe" and that let water in, but also out. now a days houses are much more closed up, and they have to do more to make sure things stay dry.
really getting into the weeds here, but depending on your attic insulation situation, you need to make sure that is getting air circulation. Unless you have insulation directly attached to the back side of ALL of the roof sheathing (plywood), the attic needs air movement. The ridge vents are pretty common, but you need to make sure you also have soffit vents, or some type of side wall venting. if you have the soffit vents you need to make sure you have baffles installed, they will fight you on this unless you push back. you need the baffles to keep the insulation from filling in between the low points of your roof trusses at the wall. you want at least 2" below the roof sheathing clear to the ridge vent. this will really help with rot, that keeps air moving at the plywood and trusses, and will really help dry those areas out. it won't stop a leak, but it should keep the leak from damaging the structural pieces too much.
volfanhill
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This is what the quote includes. Sound right to you? I appreciate your feedvack
Remove existing shingles down to decking.
- Shingles will be removed and disposed of properly.
- Re-nail any loose wood. If bad or rotten wood is discovered, it will be replaced at a price of $55 per sheet. 25 Sheets of plywood are included
in this price. 162 sheets are on your roof
- Install 3’ of GAF Weather Watch (ice and water shield) in all valley, ENTIRE BACK SLOPE & penetration locations.
- Install GAF Felt Buster (synthetic underlayment) across roof decking, overlapping onto the Ice and water shield.
- Install Drip Edge on all rake and gutter lines. Will install drip edge into existing gutter if gutter is not replaced.
- Install GAF Pro Start (starter shingles) along all gutter lines and rake edges.
- Install GAF Timberline HDZ Architectural Shingles per manufacturer specifications using 1 ¼” roofing nails.
- Install GAF Cobra (ridge vent) at all current ridges.
- Install GAF Seal-a-Ridge (ridge cap shingle) on top of all ridge vents & hips.
- Install new pipe boots.
- Reflash all areas, skylights chimney etc
- Clean up all job related debris. Roofs and gutters will be cleaned of debris and blown off. Crews will blow out gutters, pick up all trash and run
magnets over all areas worked in.
- Our Crews are licensed, insured, and GAF Certified Installers.
- Crews will maintain safety requirement at all times during the construction process.
- Project Manager will be present during your installation. Upon completion, He will do a walk around with you to assure your satisfaction!
WARRANTIES:
- 50 year System Plus Warranty from GAF
You will receive this from GAF 30-60 days post install. We will make sure it is registered.
- 25 year Stain Guard Warranty from GAF
If you notice any algae on the roof or “streaking” GAF will clean it for you. They have a new technology that prevents algae from growing on your
shingles.
- 10 year workmanship warranty from StormROOF Systems LLC
No leak guarantee
Materials & Labor
GAF Timberline HDZ
GAF ProStart Starter Shingle Strip (120')
GAF Seal-A-Ridge (25')
GAF Cobra Rigid Vent 3 Exhaust Ridge Vent w/ Nails - 9" (4')
GAF FeltBuster Synthetic Underlayment (10 sq)
GAF WeatherWatch Ice & Water Shield (1.5 sq)
Eave Drip White 5"x1.75"
IPS 4in1 Hard Plastic Pipe Flashing
Roofing Coil Nails - 1 1/4" (7200 Cnt)
10 SQ per box
Plastic Cap Nails - 1" (3000 Cnt)
25Sq per pail
Caulking
7/16"x4'x8' OSB
LouderVol
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Generally looks pretty good. GAF Timberline HDZ and their stain guard guarantee are good stuff. we use that on commercial jobs so its good quality.
yellow is where I have questions. I don't handle amounts, so this maybe a lingo thing I am not catching. On the itemized list they include 10 sq and 1.5 sq of underlayment and ice & water shield. I have no idea what that equals out to be. in your case and already having problems previously it may be worth just asking about the Underlayment and Ice & Water shield. @marcusluvsvols I know you don't specialize in roofing, but you deal with quantities more than I do.
I would also ask about the reflashing they mention. as I said before if you have any walls interrupting the roof line (dormers or different levels) you want to be sure they include a metal step flashing. I don't see one called out, but it may not be needed depending on your roof.
lastly the parts highlighted in green and red. early on they mention plywood, but when they itemize they say OSB. I would not accept OSB, and it always raises a question when their quotes don't match up. and generally the itemized list is what you are actually getting.
I would ask your guy about those items. just a friendly conversation, nothing to get into a yelling match or anything. just let him know you are cautious after your previous experience.
marcusluvsvols
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Yeah 1 square is a 10ft×10ft area or 100sf. So thats not much ice and water shield at 1.5sq...would be 150sf. It comes in rolls 3 feet wide so thats only 50 linear feet of ice/water unless its a typo. I agree that number is off. Looks like they are only figuring 10sq of shingles for the roof area too...which is fine as long as your roof is small. My house is only 1480sf 3br house though and it took almost 13 square.Its 2 stories though, so each floor is only 740sf which is a pretty small footprint. I used 37 bundles (39 would be 13sq...there are 3 bundles of shingles used per square whether they are architectural or 3tab. Arch are less likely to leak fwiw...they dont have 2 big cuts in each shingle dividing them into 3 tabs.) I roofed my house solo and had to get those 37 bundles up a 2 story ladder so i remember exactly how many i used lol. Fwiw figuring materials for a roof is not hard to do its simple multiplication so these guys know what they need. I sure most of that quote was copy/pasted and only the values for materials were added. Nobody would want to retype all that for every single estimate they give. We use the same GAF shingles like Louder said on pretty much every apartment complex we build. Theyre good shingles. Thats a professional looking estimate too. I like that they built the final walk with you and running a magnet over your yard into the contract as well. We use those magnets at work...it looks like a pushbroom with little wheels on each side. You dont want the kids to step on a roofing nail. Theyre the worst for injuries/flat tires because they're so short and have a large head to sit vertically on and puncture whatever steps on or runs over them.
I also agree with Louder (as usual) about the OSB in that real plywood is far superior if ever it is going to get wet. Chances are your entire roof is sheeted with 7/16 OSB already though unless its from about 1970? or older so unless youre going to replace all 162 sheets with real plywood, theres not much reason to just replace some of them. All the houses built in the last several decades use OSB for the roof because its a lot cheaper than real plywood. They also use OSB for the exterior sheeting of house walls and most subfloors as well. Big Custom houses are where you see folks start to use real plywood, most commonly for the subfloor but sometimes in all 3 areas. Fwiw the high end apartments we build all the time never use anything but OSB...and these are units that all have tile showers/baths, granite countertops, crown mouldings etc. There is zero doubt that real plywood is a superior product, but its so expensive these days that its not often used. Hope this helps and wasnt confusing.
If you have any questions about the install, or see something sketchy just take a photo and post it here. Between Louder and I we can keep an eye out for your posts.
* edit: my small footprint house used over 12 square of shingles, but its a steep hip roof which has more waste than a gable roof because both sides of all 4 faces of the roof have to be staggered, cut, and then covered in cap. My roof is shaped just like a pyramid. The main body of your house is probably a gable which has significantly less waste because there is only a" front" and a "back" side to your roof, and on each of those only 1 end of the roof needs to have every row of shingles cut. All that to say this: these guys know how many shingles it will take to cover your house. Dont worry over that part. I would just discuss with them and make sure that the only costs you could run into above the original estimate is for additional wood replacement at the quoted price per sheet.
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LouderVol
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marcus does bring up a good point. as one of my bosses once said, "As the architect its our job to tell the client how to spend their money."
what we say is pretty much never going to be the cheapest option. on the other side contractors will typically ONLY give you the cheapest option.
I once got into a shouting match with a contractor because he was trying to push the client to some cheaper product my firm wouldn't approve. client interrupts and asks the contractor how much it would save.
Contractor: Errr. 20 bucks.
Me: Per unit?
Contractor: no, total.
Me: *takes out my wallet and offers 20 bucks to the client.*
it was a 25 million dollar project. that 20 bucks was breaking that contractors whole budget, taking food from his family, and pulling life support off his dearly loved grandmother with how much he defended that savings. I really wanted to ask him what his cut was on that cheaper product.
what we say is pretty much never going to be the cheapest option. on the other side contractors will typically ONLY give you the cheapest option.
I once got into a shouting match with a contractor because he was trying to push the client to some cheaper product my firm wouldn't approve. client interrupts and asks the contractor how much it would save.
Contractor: Errr. 20 bucks.
Me: Per unit?
Contractor: no, total.
Me: *takes out my wallet and offers 20 bucks to the client.*
it was a 25 million dollar project. that 20 bucks was breaking that contractors whole budget, taking food from his family, and pulling life support off his dearly loved grandmother with how much he defended that savings. I really wanted to ask him what his cut was on that cheaper product.
volfanhill
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Thank you @LouderVol and @marcusluvsvols for your assistance. I greatly appreciate it.
marcusluvsvols
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No problem bud. Louder is really sharp thats why he is the architect. I have always been out here in the weather for 29 years now so i have lots of practical experience but will always defer to him when out of my depth. We make a pretty good team though IMO. Slice is very knowledgeable too...i believe he is running several crews now as a GC and has at least 1 son working for him too? I havent been in the Israel thread for weeks though so havent seen Slice in a while. He absolutely knows his stuff though across pretty much all the trades relevant to residential construction though based on what i have seen. I would let his guys work on my own home if I got badly injured or something and couldn't...and thats about as high a compliment as one can give in their own field. We have some really good guys that post here, and I would happily buy any of you folks a cold beverage anytime regardless of our political beliefs. Maybe even LG lol. Maybe.
LouderVol
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DinkinFlicka
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PEPPERJAX
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Just bite the bullet and get a Tesla power roof
How Much Does A Tesla Solar Roof Cost In 2024?
Get expert advice on improvements to your home, including design tips, how much you'd expect to pay for a pro and what to ask when hiring experts.
www.forbes.com
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volfanhill
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Just bite the bullet and get a Tesla power roof
How Much Does A Tesla Solar Roof Cost In 2024?
Get expert advice on improvements to your home, including design tips, how much you'd expect to pay for a pro and what to ask when hiring experts.
hog88
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Just bite the bullet and get a Tesla power roof
How Much Does A Tesla Solar Roof Cost In 2024?
Get expert advice on improvements to your home, including design tips, how much you'd expect to pay for a pro and what to ask when hiring experts.
Oh wow.
hog88
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