Recruiting Football Talk VII

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So, when AG's response mentioned that the NCAA has repeatedly changed its definition of "amateurism", this is pointed and purposeful.

Remember, the NCAA's admitted to being anti-competitive price fixing. They've just done so as a necessity to provide a product that the public demands--competitive amateur sports. Well, the lower court found that NCAA has made this claim while changing the definition of "amateurism" as it suits them.

The SCOTUS wrote in upholding the lower court per amateurism:

...NCAA had not adopted any consistent definition. Id., at1070. Instead, the court found, the NCAA’s rules and restrictions on compensation have shifted markedly overtime. Id., at 1071–1074. The court found, too, that the NCAA adopted these restrictions without any reference to “considerations of consumer demand,” id., at 1100, and that some were “not necessary to preserve consumer demand,”id., at 1075, 1080, 1104. None of this is product redesign; it is a straightforward application of the rule of reason.

IOW, have you really operated with a respect for amateurism and with a motive of public good/demand?
 
I'm not a Kentuckian...I despise the University of Kentucky...and yes there are a vast amount of pure BubbaGumpish type idiots in their fanbase, along with a tone of pure smartass jackasses like Matt Jones..

That being said...I don't understand why people working in coal mines is a joke...it is one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs there is, and the men that do it are some of the hardest working and brave people anywhere, and the men that have one of the relative few mining jobs that are left actually make a pretty good living..so what is funny?

I respect them...rant over.
👍👍👍

I agree, they can find something else or nothing at all since we are all Americans. It is disrespectful and goes too far.

This country was built on coal and coal mining. I guess some Vol fans forget about those same coal mines and miners north of town within our state that made our economy succeed in east TN. As an example every time they walk into TBA or go into the Thompson Cancer Survival Center they should thank Tennessee and Kentucky coal miners. Sort of lose my sense of humor when I see that stuff.
 
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You’ll have to read back.

Bottom line: of all the horrible things SEC rival fans say about one another, I just don’t get why “back to the coal mines” is out of bounds.

It’s all supposed to be a little mean, a little impolite, and even a bit tasteless, but none of it is supposed to be taken seriously.
Coal mines are a type of insult? Not in my world. Gramps worked the deep mines and raised chickens. Pops was also a miner. My other gramps worked the railroads. This spoiled old man is pretty proud of a group of men that work hard and worked honest to support their families. Salt of the earth types IMO. Gotta say that in hindsight, I'm pretty glad they weren't "educated" considering what's been pumped our by our universities over their history.
 

Yup. And I am here and celebrating every single moment of it. This corrupt system needs to be blown up and rebuilt to reflect the world as it is and not solely for the old men and women who have benefited the most for decades. Taking all of the cookies and leaving only crumbs for student athletes all of these years needs to be addressed. All the a-holes in charge ever had to do was be transparent, fair and equitable. They chose not to for decades and decades.

Now people know why I said awhile back to be the black hats. Be agents of change and stop depending on others to do it. Going along to get along was nonproductive and self defeating. You want to blow up the elite status of a half dozen schools - blow up the corrupt system from which they are benefitting and controlling you. There is enough money and good stuff for everybody that plays at the top level to share. Once an equitable system is established, may the best programs win.

And that would be the University of Tennessee and clean living. So proud of Randy, Donde, Danny, the BOT and the state right now. Hope they drive a stake into the heart of those AA corrupt azzes and kill the beast.
 
SCOTUS opinions, Kavanaugh off the top rope. I see no way that NCAA can win.

The NCAA has long restricted the compensation and benefits that student athletes may receive. And with surprising success, the NCAA has long shielded its compensation rules from ordinary antitrust scrutiny. Today, however, the Court holds that the NCAA has violated the antitrust laws.The Court’s decision marks an important and overdue course correction, and I join the Court’s excellent opinion in full.


But this case involves only a narrow subset of the NCAA’s compensation rules—namely, the rules restricting the education-related benefits that student athletes may receive, such as post-eligibility scholarships at graduate or vocational schools. The rest of the NCAA’s compensation rules are not at issue here and therefore remain on the books. Those remaining compensation rules generally restrict student athletes from receiving compensation or benefits from their colleges for playing sports. And those rules have also historically restricted student athletes from receiving money from endorsement deals and the like.


I add this concurring opinion to underscore that the NCAA’s remaining compensation rules also raise serious questions under the antitrust laws...
NCAA's argument has admitted to being price fixing wages. It's just that they should be immune from the Sherman Act. Kavanaugh pointed out that they have found NCAA expressly guilty of Sherman Act, and this will be case law going forward for future NCAA suits--even though they aren't ruling on those other matters at this time.

Later...

...although the Court does not weigh in on the ultimate legality of the NCAA’s remaining compensation rules,the Court’s decision establishes how any such rules should be analyzed going forward. After today’s decision, the NCAA’s remaining compensation rules should receive ordinary “rule of reason” scrutiny under the antitrust laws. The Court makes clear that the decades-old “stray comments”about college sports and amateurism made in National Collegiate Athletic Assn. v. Board of Regents of Univ. of Okla.,468 U. S. 85 (1984), were dicta and have no bearing on whether the NCAA’s current compensation rules are lawful. Ante, at 21. And the Court stresses that the NCAA is not otherwise entitled to an exemption from the antitrust laws. Ante, at 23–24; see also Radovich v. National Football League, 352 U. S. 445, 449–452 (1957). As a result, absent legislation or a negotiated agreement between the NCAA and the student athletes, the NCAA’s remaining compensation rules should be subject to ordinary rule of reason scrutiny. See ante, at 18–19.

...there are serious questions whether the NCAA’s remaining compensation rules can pass muster under ordinary rule of reason scrutiny. Under the rule of reason, the NCAA must supply a legally valid pro competitive justification for its remaining compensation rules. As I see it, however, the NCAA may lack such a justification.

The NCAA acknowledges that it controls the market for college athletes. The NCAA concedes that its compensation rules set the price of student athlete labor at a below-market rate. And the NCAA recognizes that student athletes currently have no meaningful ability to negotiate with the NCAA over the compensation rules.

The NCAA nonetheless asserts that its compensation rules are pro competitive because those rules help define the product of college sports. Specifically, the NCAA says that colleges may decline to pay student athletes because the defining feature of college sports, according to the NCAA, is that the student athletes are not paid.

In my view, that argument is circular and unpersuasive.The NCAA couches its arguments for not paying student athletes in innocuous labels. But the labels cannot disguise the reality: The NCAA’s business model would be flatly illegal in almost any other industry in America. All of the restaurants in a region cannot come together to cut cooks’wages on the theory that “customers prefer” to eat food from low-paid cooks. Law firms cannot conspire to cabin lawyers’salaries in the name of providing legal services out of a “love of the law.” Hospitals cannot agree to cap nurses’ income in order to create a “purer” form of helping the sick. News organizations cannot join forces to curtail pay to reporters to preserve a “tradition” of public-minded journalism.Movie studios cannot collude to slash benefits to camera crews to kindle a “spirit of amateurism” in Hollywood.

Price-fixing labor is price-fixing labor. And price-fixing labor is ordinarily a textbook antitrust problem because it extinguishes the free market in which individuals can otherwise obtain fair compensation for their work.

Businesses like the NCAA cannot avoid the consequences of price-fixing labor by incorporating price-fixed labor into the definition of the product. Or to put it in more doctrinal terms, a monopsony cannot launder its price-fixing of labor by calling it product definition.

The bottom line is that the NCAA and its member colleges are suppressing the pay of student athletes who collectively generate billions of dollars in revenues for colleges every year. Those enormous sums of money flow to seemingly everyone except the student athletes. College presidents, athletic directors, coaches, conference commissioners, and NCAA executives take in six- and seven-figure salaries. Colleges build lavish new facilities. But the student athletes who generate the revenues, many of whom are African American and from lower-income backgrounds,end up with little or nothing. See Brief for African American Antitrust Lawyers as Amici Curiae 13–17.

Everyone agrees that the NCAA can require student athletes to be enrolled students in good standing. But theNCAA’s business model of using unpaid student athletes togenerate billions of dollars in revenue for the colleges raisesserious questions under the antitrust laws. In particular,it is highly questionable whether the NCAA and its membercolleges can justify not paying student athletes a fair shareof the revenues on the circular theory that the definingcharacteristic of college sports is that the colleges do not paystudent athletes. And if that asserted justification is unavailing, it is not clear how the NCAA can legally defend its remaining compensation rules.

...

To be sure, the NCAA and its member colleges maintain important traditions that have become part of the fabric of America—game days in Tuscaloosa and South Bend; the packed gyms in Storrs and Durham; the women’s and men’s lacrosse championships on Memorial Day weekend; track and field meets in Eugene; the spring softball and baseball World Series in Oklahoma City and Omaha; the list goes on. But those traditions alone cannot justify the NCAA’s decision to build a massive money-raising enterprise on the backs of student athletes who are not fairly compensated.Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate. And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different. The NCAA is not above the law.
 
Coal mines are a type of insult? Not in my world. Gramps worked the deep mines and raised chickens. Pops was also a miner. My other gramps worked the railroads. This spoiled old man is pretty proud of a group of men that work hard and worked honest to support their families. Salt of the earth types IMO. Gotta say that in hindsight, I'm pretty glad they weren't "educated" considering what's been pumped our by our universities over their history.
Welp, the joke police have spoken.

Sorry, Peanut. If it means anything to you, I still thought it was a funny call.
 
Yup. And I am here and celebrating every single moment of it. This corrupt system needs to be blown up and rebuilt to reflect the world as it is and not solely for the old men and women who have benefited the most for decades. Taking all of the cookies and leaving only crumbs for student athletes all of these years needs to be addressed. All the a-holes in charge ever had to do was be transparent, fair and equitable. They chose not to for decades and decades.

Now people know why I said awhile back to be the black hats. Be agents of change and stop depending on others to do it. Going along to get along was nonproductive and self defeating. You want to blow up the elite status of a half dozen schools - blow up the corrupt system from which they are benefitting and controlling you. There is enough money and good stuff for everybody that plays at the top level to share. Once an equitable system is established, may the best programs win.

And that would be the University of Tennessee and clean living. So proud of Randy, Donde, Danny, the BOT and the state right now. Hope they drive a stake into the heart of those AA corrupt azzes and kill the beast.
Yep. But on Pates show he said a consequence of all this will be non revenue sports being shuttered across the country. With Title IX, it will be interesting to see what all gets cut. I fear many schools will be losing mens baseball and soccer programs since they’re the most expensive and team oriented with the inability to cut women’s sports for fear of lawsuits or optics.
 
SCOTUS opinions, Kavanaugh off the top rope. I see no way that NCAA can win.


NCAA's argument has admitted to being price fixing wages. It's just that they should be immune from the Sherman Act. Kavanaugh pointed out that they have found NCAA expressly guilty of Sherman Act, and this will be case law going forward for future NCAA suits--even though they aren't ruling on those other matters at this time.

Later...



...
I have nosed around on this thing for a while. Trying to find expert opinion on the subject. It's very broad in scope on face of it.

Tennessee released its slimmed down argument yesterday. Very compelling to me. NCAA really doesnt have a leg to stand on.

Tennessee may be guilty of flying a recruit. It may lose post season this or that. But man, NCAA's nuts are in a vice on issue of player compensation and rights issues.
 
Yep. But on Pates show he said a consequence of all this will be non revenue sports being shuttered across the country. With Title IX, it will be interesting to see what all gets cut. I fear many schools will be losing mens baseball and soccer programs since they’re the most expensive and team oriented with the inability to cut women’s sports for fear of lawsuits or optics.

That’s just schools being greedy. No reason any of those sports have to be cut. They absolutely have the money to support them.

No one in this racket has student athletes best interests at heart. At least that’s now out in the open and no longer a discussion point with two sides.
 
I'm not a Kentuckian...I despise the University of Kentucky...and yes there are a vast amount of pure BubbaGumpish type idiots in their fanbase, along with a tone of pure smartass jackasses like Matt Jones..

That being said...I don't understand why people working in coal mines is a joke...it is one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs there is, and the men that do it are some of the hardest working and brave people anywhere, and the men that have one of the relative few mining jobs that are left actually make a pretty good living..so what is funny?

I respect them...rant over.
I dont take it as a knock on the coal miners, other than saying that it's the only thing there is in Kentucky.
 
Yep. But on Pates show he said a consequence of all this will be non revenue sports being shuttered across the country. With Title IX, it will be interesting to see what all gets cut. I fear many schools will be losing mens baseball and soccer programs since they’re the most expensive and team oriented with the inability to cut women’s sports for fear of lawsuits or optics.

Not sure ai follow the logic, unless the argument is the school paying the players directly through collective bargaining.

Some of the most successful benefactors in the NIL space are women athletes (ie: LSU gymnast team, etc).
 
Not sure ai follow the logic, unless the argument is the school paying the players directly through collective bargaining.

Some of the most successful benefactors in the NIL space are women athletes (ie: LSU gymnast team, etc).
Players themselves, but not the athletic departments who now have boosters splitting donations between NIL and the AD when it used to all go to the AD.
 
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That’s just schools being greedy. No reason any of those sports have to be cut. They absolutely have the money to support them.

No one in this racket has student athletes best interests at heart. At least that’s now out in the open and no longer a discussion point with two sides.
In the SEC, sure. But not every school is loaded. I doubt Utah or Minnesota’s AD can support them all the way big brands can.
 
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