Official Gramps' Memorial Eternal OT Thread

#69,180
#69,180
McDad said:
Understood. I think you may have a romanticized view of the sport wrt to buying athletes. Has always been a part of it. Now, it is simply out in the open.

I like the new system. Coaches don't have loyalty. We don't even expect loyalty when a better offer comes along. Why should loyalty from the young men?
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I would expect better of players than a Pruitt or Jones or Kiffin.
I get it though..just billions of dollars for an amateur sport just is too much. Now you have basically free agency with the portal. Not like these kids arent alreasy massively coddled.
 
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#69,181
#69,181
Orangeburst said:
I would expect better of players than a Pruitt or Jones or Kiffin.
I get it though..just billions of dollars for an amateur sport just is too much. Now you have basically free agency with the portal. Not like these kids arent alreasy massively coddled.
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It does diminish the notion of sports as an avenue to learn life skills and that sport is good as a stand alone.

But, I don't fault the young men for getting the best opportunity just like any of us would pursue if given the choice.
 
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#69,182
#69,182
McDad said:
It does diminish the notion of sports as an avenue to learn life skills and that sport is good as a stand alone.

But, I don't fault the young men for getting the best opportunity just like any of us would pursue if given the choice.
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here is what LA Vol in RF just posted
just copy and paste as dont want to drag him to this place…lol

Players are asking crazy money. Few are worth what they think they are. Programs are having to throw money at portalers while recruiting their own best players to stay. It's not sustainable but it's full tilt right now.
 
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#69,183
#69,183
Capitalism. If it's legal and they can get it, go make that money. Yes, it's a huge change from what we've known, but it's the new normal. It likely becomes nonviable at some point, but I doubt any time soon.
 
#69,184
#69,184
Orangeburst said:
here is what LA Vol in RF just posted
just copy and paste as dont want to drag him to this place…lol

Players are asking crazy money. Few are worth what they think they are. Programs are having to throw money at portalers while recruiting their own best players to stay. It's not sustainable but it's full tilt right now.
Click to expand...
That's okay. Even expected. Once the new thing is in place, the people tend to go a little bonkers. It will settle out either organically or with oversight. There is plenty of money to go around in the football programs of the the better programs.
 
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#69,186
#69,186
McDad said:
Is there something special about the game being played by "amateur" young men which is lost by them having agency over their name, image, and likeness? Serious question because I like to understand how people think about things.
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I'm dead set against collegiate professional sports. The concept of a university education is that you learn, graduate, and apply what you learned in a job - even if you coop or have graduate assistantships to earn while in school, it's trading on what you've learned at the collegiate level. Think of collegiate sports as a mix of playing sports while learning what you need for a future, and perhaps as a basis for a job with the NFL or whatever. No student should routinely be paid for being a student - that's just not the way it works, and almost all students pay into the university as a means of sustaining the university which means pay for staff and to maintain/build the infrastructure. There is the argument that athletes don't have time to work; that was addressed by "cost of attendance" - a stipend paid to athletes, and there are the dining halls, etc that go well beyond what a typical student gets.

As far as NIL, that was supposed to be a payback if someone profited from passive use of a player's name, likeness, or image - like in an electronic game, or profit from selling things like football jerseys. I don't remember players actively advertising products as part of NIL - supposedly that would require time that players don't have. NIL as it stands now is simply the new way of buying players - recruits, keeping those you need, and luring transfers. It's basically a 180 degree turn on paying players under the table - the thing that brought NCAA penalties and sanctions. This is an immeasurable trade for income scheme - no different from sleazy book and speaking deals that politicians make - there's no accountability between the worth of the product and what is being paid for the product. And no recruit has a resume worth the sales of products or whatever in his/her name. Think Joe Milton hype vs Joe Milton achievement on the field - Heisman vs fairly mediocre player with at least six years of collegiate football experience.

All this was set in motion even earlier when universities started the "partial academic qualifying" process that allowed "students" who didn't meet academic requirements to be enrolled and play sports. That and the NFL essentially requiring collegiate playing time - but the players they really wanted weren't student material. That was when things really changed from student athletes to athletes pretending to be students so the NFL had a farm league. The supposed backup plan for that was measuring graduation rates - something rarely even mentioned these days. Put real students back on the collegiate field and let the NFL handle their own prep course.

I realize that I speak as someone who worked for degrees necessary for a profession - engineering in my case, and also as someone who helped pay for two sons college educations ... and at least one advanced degree for the wife. You do that, and you quickly realize what an education costs. Athletic scholarships are worth a lot - especially when you add in the living facilities, meals, training/playing facilities, tutoring/mentoring ...
 
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#69,188
#69,188
gcbvol said:
Capitalism. If it's legal and they can get it, go make that money. Yes, it's a huge change from what we've known, but it's the new normal. It likely becomes nonviable at some point, but I doubt any time soon.
Click to expand...

Capitalism is a great concept, but it sometimes is it's own worst enemy. Capitalism is likely the most rational business model until it goes beyond reason and into the dark side. Capitalism has the very means to turn cannibalistic and destroy itself. It's almost inevitable that some governing body has to step in and set controls like antitrust measures or banking regulation and reform. As it stands now, the NCAA, because of a SC court ruling, has basically walked out of managing NIL. State legislatures have stepped in, but you have to question the whys and the motivations for that; so now we're in the lawless stage ... until congress and maybe the SC step in again to manage s situation that the universities via the NCAA let go out of control.

This is where mankind has completely screwed up again and let order descend into chaos, and can the toothpaste be put back into the tube ... or will it be the wrath of the killer toothpaste unleased on the world. The other twist on all this is whether athletes become employees ... try that on for size and consider what that means for the rest of the student body. Inmates running the asylum? Before answering all that, consider what NIL was supposedly all about, and how that initial concept has spun completely out of control.
 
#69,189
#69,189
McDad said:
That's okay. Even expected. Once the new thing is in place, the people tend to go a little bonkers. It will settle out either organically or with oversight. There is plenty of money to go around in the football programs of the the better programs.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking the answer is going to be oversight at some point ... and lots of it. Will it be a bigger, heavier duty, industrial strength NCAA with quasigovernmental powers; or will the US government spin off a new three letter agency to manage things? Don't bet against either happening - actions always cause reactions. Don't forget Title IX is just beginning to rear it's ugly head in this matter ... and there are ex-collegiate athletes beginning to stir the reparations pot - read something about that a few days ago.

NCAA proposing new college athletics subdivision rooted in direct athlete compensation
 
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#69,190
#69,190
AM64 said:
I'm dead set against collegiate professional sports. The concept of a university education is that you learn, graduate, and apply what you learned in a job - even if you coop or have graduate assistantships to earn while in school, it's trading on what you've learned at the collegiate level. Think of collegiate sports as a mix of playing sports while learning what you need for a future, and perhaps as a basis for a job with the NFL or whatever. No student should routinely be paid for being a student - that's just not the way it works, and almost all students pay into the university as a means of sustaining the university which means pay for staff and to maintain/build the infrastructure. There is the argument that athletes don't have time to work; that was addressed by "cost of attendance" - a stipend paid to athletes, and there are the dining halls, etc that go well beyond what a typical student gets.

As far as NIL, that was supposed to be a payback if someone profited from passive use of a player's name, likeness, or image - like in an electronic game, or profit from selling things like football jerseys. I don't remember players actively advertising products as part of NIL - supposedly that would require time that players don't have. NIL as it stands now is simply the new way of buying players - recruits, keeping those you need, and luring transfers. It's basically a 180 degree turn on paying players under the table - the thing that brought NCAA penalties and sanctions. This is an immeasurable trade for income scheme - no different from sleazy book and speaking deals that politicians make - there's no accountability between the worth of the product and what is being paid for the product. And no recruit has a resume worth the sales of products or whatever in his/her name. Think Joe Milton hype vs Joe Milton achievement on the field - Heisman vs fairly mediocre player with at least six years of collegiate football experience.

All this was set in motion even earlier when universities started the "partial academic qualifying" process that allowed "students" who didn't meet academic requirements to be enrolled and play sports. That and the NFL essentially requiring collegiate playing time - but the players they really wanted weren't student material. That was when things really changed from student athletes to athletes pretending to be students so the NFL had a farm league. The supposed backup plan for that was measuring graduation rates - something rarely even mentioned these days. Put real students back on the collegiate field and let the NFL handle their own prep course.

I realize that I speak as someone who worked for degrees necessary for a profession - engineering in my case, and also as someone who helped pay for two sons college educations ... and at least one advanced degree for the wife. You do that, and you quickly realize what an education costs. Athletic scholarships are worth a lot - especially when you add in the living facilities, meals, training/playing facilities, tutoring/mentoring ...
Click to expand...
the problem is that football players aren't allowed to have jobs. It still is against the rules and their eligibility to be able to work. Its why you had guys like Arian Foster stealing to eat from Taco Bell. Most ROTC's actually gave better benefits $ than athletics scholarships until the last 10 years or so when things finally started to change.

and no other scholarship has the same limits put on them like athletic scholarships do. specifically when it came to NIL and otherwise being able to make money while on scholarship. yeah they get more benefits than most scholarships, but it came with some HUGE restrictions that were unconstitutional.

and no other scholarship provides a direct financial benefit to the university like football players do. In fact the football players make the schools SO MUCH money that money is used to fund other sports. no other scholarship program comes close to that. so trying to compare it to other scholarships is not apples to apples.

I would rather have a fair system rather than one I like. the last group I blame is the players. they are adults, and not a single one of us would do anything different in their cleats.
 
#69,191
#69,191
AM64 said:
Capitalism is a great concept, but it sometimes is it's own worst enemy. Capitalism is likely the most rational business model until it goes beyond reason and into the dark side. Capitalism has the very means to turn cannibalistic and destroy itself. It's almost inevitable that some governing body has to step in and set controls like antitrust measures or banking regulation and reform. As it stands now, the NCAA, because of a SC court ruling, has basically walked out of managing NIL. State legislatures have stepped in, but you have to question the whys and the motivations for that; so now we're in the lawless stage ... until congress and maybe the SC step in again to manage s situation that the universities via the NCAA let go out of control.

This is where mankind has completely screwed up again and let order descend into chaos, and can the toothpaste be put back into the tube ... or will it be the wrath of the killer toothpaste unleased on the world. The other twist on all this is whether athletes become employees ... try that on for size and consider what that means for the rest of the student body. Inmates running the asylum? Before answering all that, consider what NIL was supposedly all about, and how that initial concept has spun completely out of control.
Click to expand...
not lost in all these to me is these are public institutions, so it isnt just capitalistic.I dont want to see Food City on the side of TBA as well.
 
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#69,193
#69,193
LouderVol said:
the problem is that football players aren't allowed to have jobs. It still is against the rules and their eligibility to be able to work. Its why you had guys like Arian Foster stealing to eat from Taco Bell. Most ROTC's actually gave better benefits $ than athletics scholarships until the last 10 years or so when things finally started to change.

and no other scholarship has the same limits put on them like athletic scholarships do. specifically when it came to NIL and otherwise being able to make money while on scholarship. yeah they get more benefits than most scholarships, but it came with some HUGE restrictions that were unconstitutional.

and no other scholarship provides a direct financial benefit to the university like football players do. In fact the football players make the schools SO MUCH money that money is used to fund other sports. no other scholarship program comes close to that. so trying to compare it to other scholarships is not apples to apples.

I would rather have a fair system rather than one I like. the last group I blame is the players. they are adults, and not a single one of us would do anything different in their cleats.
Click to expand...

Athletic scholarships - especially the ones at schools like UT come with very generous meal plans ... that a player has to steal to eat is preposterous. That is what "cost of attendance" was supposed to address - that's just shy of $6K/per year. Will it buy a car, pay for off campus apartment and food? No. Does it provide spending money on top of athletic dorms and cafeterias (often with specific meals planned by team dieticians)? Yes. Students have always been faced with decisions if they aren't wealthy - everybody would like a nice apartment and car, but it doesn't work that way. One thing college teaches is that you do what is necessary to get the degree to enable you to live better after graduation; the student loan crisis points out that students aren't getting the message.

ROTC scholarships pay those extra benefits to entice people into the program. Pre pro sports types just need a place to play and show their abilities to make it to the draft or tryouts. That's a case of individual need - the military needs; pro sports have plenty of people wanting in - let them figure out the selection process and finance it.

Sure Tennessee brings in a lot of income for home games, but how far does the real accounting go? What budget do all the stadium and practice facilities, upkeep, security, management, etc fall into? What about the travel costs especially with conference expansion? When the accounting is done accurately, what are the real numbers. And that thing about football supporting other sports; do we cut off other sports or make second class student athletes (think Title IX)? In short does favoritism toward football and income essentially result in the death of student athletes outside football, and how does that look when it's all supposed to be amateur sports that supposedly have goals like physical fitness, teaching teamwork, providing relief from the classroom, etc?
 
#69,195
#69,195
gcbvol said:
Yep. Bottom line is they are the foundation of a multi-billion dollar business. It does not exist without them.
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Acccctually it doesn’t exist without us morons that pay to watch (TV or in person) watch these guys play a game, buy the merch and all the the other crap. Without us it’s just intramural clubs.
 
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#69,196
#69,196
@AM64
Should a mechanical engineer employed by a university in plant ops making 65k a year be able to take classes for a business degree at the same time at the universitywhere he is employed?
 
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#69,197
#69,197
McDad said:
@AM64
Should a mechanical engineer employed by a university in plant ops making 65k a year be able to take classes for a business degree at the same time at the universitywhere he is employed?
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As long as the engineer pays for the courses, and doesn't take the courses on company time, then no problem. It's no different than an engineer in another company being given time to work toward and advanced degree and sometimes with tuition reimbursed. With that said, if the university grants all employees time and reduced tuition then the engineer should benefit similarly. The point is that he's there as a fulltime employee and the educational benefit can't significantly detract from his work.

To me the distinction is that football players are at a school to earn a degree in something other than football, and the scholarship is there to enable them to earn the degree - that's worth a significant chunk of money as you know. I think it's something that other scholarship students don't get, but perhaps the "cost of attendance" stipend as compensation for being unable to work is reasonable - and controllable. The other consideration in expanding "income" for football players is the Title IX implications and then what happens when band members and other student performers want in on the act.
 
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#69,198
#69,198
AM64 said:
As long as the engineer pays for the courses, and doesn't take the courses on company time, then no problem. It's no different than an engineer in another company being given time to work toward and advanced degree and sometimes with tuition reimbursed. With that said, if the university grants all employees time and reduced tuition then the engineer should benefit similarly. The point is that he's there as a fulltime employee and the educational benefit can't significantly detract from his work.

To me the distinction is that football players are at a school to earn a degree in something other than football, and the scholarship is there to enable them to earn the degree - that's worth a significant chunk of money as you know. I think it's something that other scholarship students don't get, but perhaps the "cost of attendance" stipend as compensation for being unable to work is reasonable - and controllable. The other consideration in expanding "income" for football players is the Title IX implications and then what happens when band members and other student performers want in on the act.
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What if the university wanted to waive his tuition because of the engineering work he performs as an added "thank you" for his efforts even though he is already compensated for the work?
 
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#69,199
#69,199
McDad said:
What if the university wanted to waive his tuition because of the engineering work he performs as an added "thank you" for his efforts even though he is already compensated for the work?
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Nothing wrong with that.

Before you go there with football. The parallel you'd have to make is that universities would have professional football teams with paid employees participating ... essentially a professional Collegiate Football League with paid players and no educational obligations. However, that would completely invalidate the concept of students who participate in sports. Then you'd have professional players with no reason for attachment to a university - basically mercenaries attached to the school trading on history.
 
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#69,200
#69,200
AM64 said:
Nothing wrong with that.

Before you go there with football. The parallel you'd have to make is that universities would have professional football teams with paid employees participating ... essentially a professional Collegiate Football League with paid players and no educational obligations. However, that would completely invalidate the concept of students who participate in sports. Then you'd have professional players with no reason for attachment to a university - basically mercenaries attached to the school trading on history.
Click to expand...
Understood. There are players who have graduated but still continue to play. Playing with no educational obligations.
 
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