Dillone Article In Today's News Sentinel

[tombowalker]

I mean he does have a history of benching guys who aren't playing defense to his standard. Doesn't matter how good they are offensively.

Any examples of offensive studs benched because of defense?

 

[jaguinn5]

Any examples of offensive studs benched because of defense?

Did I say offensive studs? He just doesn't play guys if they don't play to his standard on defense. Do you really not know that about him? It is sort of his whole identity.

 

[jaguinn5]

Like who?

Do you not know that is his whole identity? There are guys that dont play every year because they aren't ready defensively. It doesn't matter what else they can do well. If they don't meet his standard on defense, he won't play them. Again, thats his whole identity as a coach.

 

[Vols410]

Do you not know that is his whole identity? There are guys that dont play every year because they aren't ready defensively. It doesn't matter what else they can do well. If they don't meet his standard on defense, he won't play them. Again, thats his whole identity as a coach.

The "doesn't matter how good they are offensively" is totally unqualified though. It's fair to say he puts a premium on defense and we'd all agree with that, but if he had a premium offensive talent he'd absolutely get playing time. Bone/Punter, for example, were average defenders but played plenty of minutes under Barnes.

 

[tombowalker]

Did I say offensive studs? He just doesn't play guys if they don't play to his standard on defense. Do you really not know that about him? It is sort of his whole identity.

Meh. You implied it.

Truth is, Barnes benches players who he feels don't give us the best chance of winning.

If you can point to a single great offensive player who was on the bench because of defense, I would love to hear it.

But we both know you won't give me a name, because it doesn't exist.

Edit:
They don't even have to be "great" offensively. Just give me an above average scorer that Barnes benched because of defense.

 

[SGMVols]

The "doesn't matter how good they are offensively" is totally unqualified though. It's fair to say he puts a premium on defense and we'd all agree with that, but if he had a premium offensive talent he'd absolutely get playing time. Bone/Punter, for example, were average defenders but played plenty of minutes under Barnes.

Santi was a turnstile defensively as a freshman but played because he could shoot.

 

[ReggieJohnsonFan]

Meh. You implied it.

Truth is, Barnes benches players who he feels don't give us the best chance of winning.

If you can point to a single great offensive player who was on the bench because of defense, I would love to hear it.

But we both know you won't give me a name, because it doesn't exist.

Edit:
They don't even have to be "great" offensively. Just give me an above average scorer that Barnes benched because of defense.

I don’t think Barnes is unique in what you are saying. I don’t know too many coaches anywhere who give a lot of playing time to non-stud offensive players that don’t play defense. That sounds like a recipe for losing to me.

 

[jaguinn5]

Meh. You implied it.

Truth is, Barnes benches players who he feels don't give us the best chance of winning.

If you can point to a single great offensive player who was on the bench because of defense, I would love to hear it.

But we both know you won't give me a name, because it doesn't exist.

Edit:
They don't even have to be "great" offensively. Just give me an above average scorer that Barnes benched because of defense.

We all know that he won't play guys that are a liability on defense. The guys we have had that could score weren't bad on defense. Punter and Bone were not defensive liabilities. All I was saying, and I believe it to be true, is that if a guy is a liability on defense, Barnes won't give him big time minutes.

 

[ITSGR82BATNVOL]

Offensive catalyst...does not compute. Have we ever had one of those? Are we allowed to?

Grant Williams obviously. We may have had others too, before Barnes coached it out of them.

 

[Vols410]

Grant Williams obviously. We may have had others too, before Barnes coached it out of them.

 

[cncchris33]

Grant Williams obviously. We may have had others too, before Barnes coached it out of them.

Kevin Punter
Admiral Schofield
Jordan Bone
Santiago Vescovi
Kennedy Chandler
Jaden Springer
Keon Johnson

He even managed to turn guys like Armani Moore, Jordan Bowden, Yves Pons, and John Fulkerson into respectable scorers. But whatever...

 

[VolFreakJosh]

Grant Williams obviously. We may have had others too, before Barnes coached it out of them.

Clueless

 

[jaguinn5]

Grant Williams obviously. We may have had others too, before Barnes coached it out of them.

I don't think it is fair to say he coaches it out of them. He just recruits guys and attempts to mold them to his system. He doesn't mold his system, especially offensively, to maximize a player's strengths.

 

[Vols410]

I don't think it is fair to say he coaches it out of them. He just recruits guys and attempts to mold them to his system. He doesn't mold his system, especially offensively, to maximize a player's strengths.

Disagree with this. Like any good coach, he has a system in mind and makes an effort to recruit for fit to that system. The approach does change as players change though.

• In 2016-2017 we were a small, young team so they ran at a much higher tempo than typical Barnes teams (rk. 119/104).
• In 2019 we were an experienced team with a All-American that was unstoppable in the paint, so our 3p_rate was one of the lowest in the country (rk. 324) as we focused on the inside game.
• In 2020 we were a bigger team (rk. 38 in team height), with a ton of inexperience at the point (injured LT, freshman SV) so we slowed the tempo down a ton (rk. 315).
• In 2022, with a smaller, younger team again (lots of KC/ZZ/SV lineups), the tempo went back to the national average.
• In 2022-2023, our most consistent scoring threats were Vescovi, Chandler (2022), and Zeigler, so our 3p_rate has been right at the cusp of top-100 in the country (rk. 110/103).

The Grant Williams teams were very post-centric, inside-out oriented, and the last couple years have involved a ton more pick-and-roll actions from KC/ZZ.

His greatest emphasis will always be defense, but the narrative that he refuses to adapt/mold his offensive system just isn't true.

 

[jaguinn5]

Kevin Punter
Admiral Schofield
Jordan Bone
Santiago Vescovi
Kennedy Chandler
Jaden Springer
Keon Johnson

He even managed to turn guys like Armani Moore, Jordan Bowden, Yves Pons, and John Fulkerson into respectable scorers. But whatever...

You are all over the map with that list. We've had 9 players average over 13 points a game in Barnes's tenure. I wouldn't say 13 ppg is exactly amazing, but it at least implies SOME consistency and is I believe above average. Springer, Johnson, Moore, and Chandler never hit 13 ppg. They all had great individual games, but weren't consistent scorers. Robert Hubbs had a better year offensively than all of them. I'm not sure why you even mentioned Pons (because he hit a few threes and dunked it a few times I guess). He was a defensive juggernaut, but was never a huge offensive weapon. We've only had 3 players average over 15 ppg in Barnes's tenure: Punter (2015-2016: 22.2 ppg), Williams (twice- 2017-2018: 15.2 ppg and 2018-2019: 18.8 ppg), Schofield (2018-2019: 16.5 ppg). Since that 2018-2019 season, we haven't had a player average 14 ppg. I wouldn't say the list of really good scorers under Barnes is a long one. There are a lot of reasons for that. Some guys should've stayed. Some guys may have just hit their ceiling. Some guys were not given the opportunity to showcase the things they were best at because it didn't fit the system. Barnes isn't responsible for all of the offensive struggles we've had over the years, but he is responsible for most of it, either through development, scheme, or recruiting.

 

[jaguinn5]

Disagree with this. Like any good coach, he has a system in mind and makes an effort to recruit for fit to that system. The approach does change as players change though.

• In 2016-2017 we were a small, young team so they ran at a much higher tempo than typical Barnes teams (rk. 119/104).
• In 2019 we were an experienced team with a All-American that was unstoppable in the paint, so our 3p_rate was one of the lowest in the country (rk. 324) as we focused on the inside game.
• In 2020 we were a bigger team (rk. 38 in team height), with a ton of inexperience at the point (injured LT, freshman SV) so we slowed the tempo down a ton (rk. 315).
• In 2022, with a smaller, younger team again (lots of KC/ZZ/SV lineups), the tempo went back to the national average.
• In 2022-2023, our most consistent scoring threats were Vescovi, Chandler (2022), and Zeigler, so our 3p_rate has been right at the cusp of top-100 in the country (rk. 110/103).

The Grant Williams teams were very post-centric, inside-out oriented, and the last couple years have involved a ton more pick-and-roll actions from KC/ZZ.

His greatest emphasis will always be defense, but the narrative that he refuses to adapt/mold his offensive system just isn't true.

Our pace is not a huge factor here. We've ranged from like 67 to 73 possessions per game or something like that, so the disparity is not exactly a defining feature of our offense. We run the same offensive scheme every year. The main reason it looks different is because it gives the option scoring down low or passing out to shooters. The differences you are seeing doesn't mean the scheme is changing, it just means the makeup of the team is changing. The problem is that if a player isn't a good post scorer or a good shooter, they tend to disappear. These 5 stars we are getting that haven't performed are underperforming because they aren't great shooters or post scorers. They are good at other things that don't fit into this offense.

 

[jeff1vol]

WHO CARES???!!!! Can he play DEFENSE!!!????

 

[cncchris33]

You are all over the map with that list. We've had 9 players average over 13 points a game in Barnes's tenure. I wouldn't say 13 ppg is exactly amazing, but it at least implies SOME consistency and is I believe above average. Springer, Johnson, Moore, and Chandler never hit 13 ppg. They all had great individual games, but weren't consistent scorers. Robert Hubbs had a better year offensively than all of them. I'm not sure why you even mentioned Pons (because he hit a few threes and dunked it a few times I guess). He was a defensive juggernaut, but was never a huge offensive weapon. We've only had 3 players average over 15 ppg in Barnes's tenure: Punter (2015-2016: 22.2 ppg), Williams (twice- 2017-2018: 15.2 ppg and 2018-2019: 18.8 ppg), Schofield (2018-2019: 16.5 ppg). Since that 2018-2019 season, we haven't had a player average 14 ppg. I wouldn't say the list of really good scorers under Barnes is a long one. There are a lot of reasons for that. Some guys should've stayed. Some guys may have just hit their ceiling. Some guys were not given the opportunity to showcase the things they were best at because it didn't fit the system. Barnes isn't responsible for all of the offensive struggles we've had over the years, but he is responsible for most of it, either through development, scheme, or recruiting.

Setting the benchmark at 13 ppg seems rather arbitrary...some would say convenient to your argument...but in any case, Kennedy Chandler averaged 14 ppg (13.9), so he doesn't fit your favorable narrative.

Jaden Springer averaged 12.5 ppg as a freshman.
Keon Johnson averaged 11.3 ppg as a freshman.
Not bad results for their freshman years.

Armani Moore, while not meeting your mark, experienced his best year of his career under Barnes (12.2 ppg) setting career heights in points and 3-pt%.

Robert Hubbs is one that I failed to mention, but thanks for adding to my point. I never claimed my original list to be an exhaustive canon of all players under Rick Barnes. But yes, Hubbs...another player to have his best offensive years under Barnes.

Pons, I mentioned, is someone that had almost no offensive game as a freshman and sophomore, but developed into a reliable scorer as a junior (10.8 ppg). That isn't incredibly impressive on the surface, but on a team that had such balance in which its leading scorers averaged 13.7, 13.7, 12.3, 10.8, and 10.7, going from averaging 2.2 as a sophomore to 10.8 as a junior is at least impressive improvement.

That brings me to my last point, which is to say that Barnes teams have traditionally been very balanced, offensively, which doesn't lend itself to absurd scoring averages. Kevin Punter and Grant Williams (junior season) are the outliers. Not leading the SEC in scoring doesn't equate to "Barnes coaching the offense out of them". He has, in fact, coached some of the best offensive years of some of these guys, or generated improvement in their offensive games over their career. By no means am I calling him Phil Jackson. But if you want to continue blindly agreeing that he just neuters any and all offense from his players, have at it.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

You are all over the map with that list. We've had 9 players average over 13 points a game in Barnes's tenure. I wouldn't say 13 ppg is exactly amazing, but it at least implies SOME consistency and is I believe above average. Springer, Johnson, Moore, and Chandler never hit 13 ppg. They all had great individual games, but weren't consistent scorers. Robert Hubbs had a better year offensively than all of them. I'm not sure why you even mentioned Pons (because he hit a few threes and dunked it a few times I guess). He was a defensive juggernaut, but was never a huge offensive weapon. We've only had 3 players average over 15 ppg in Barnes's tenure: Punter (2015-2016: 22.2 ppg), Williams (twice- 2017-2018: 15.2 ppg and 2018-2019: 18.8 ppg), Schofield (2018-2019: 16.5 ppg). Since that 2018-2019 season, we haven't had a player average 14 ppg. I wouldn't say the list of really good scorers under Barnes is a long one. There are a lot of reasons for that. Some guys should've stayed. Some guys may have just hit their ceiling. Some guys were not given the opportunity to showcase the things they were best at because it didn't fit the system. Barnes isn't responsible for all of the offensive struggles we've had over the years, but he is responsible for most of it, either through development, scheme, or recruiting.

Every team has had at least 3 players average double digits. One had 4 and 2 others had 5. Plus they all had players averaging in high single digits as well. Balanced scoring isn’t a bad thing.

 

[jaguinn5]

Setting the benchmark at 13 ppg seems rather arbitrary...some would say convenient to your argument...but in any case, Kennedy Chandler averaged 14 ppg (13.9), so he doesn't fit your favorable narrative.

Jaden Springer averaged 12.5 ppg as a freshman.
Keon Johnson averaged 11.3 ppg as a freshman.
Not bad results for their freshman years.

Armani Moore, while not meeting your mark, experienced his best year of his career under Barnes (12.2 ppg) setting career heights in points and 3-pt%.

Robert Hubbs is one that I failed to mention, but thanks for adding to my point. I never claimed my original list to be an exhaustive canon of all players under Rick Barnes. But yes, Hubbs...another player to have his best offensive years under Barnes.

Pons, I mentioned, is someone that had almost no offensive game as a freshman and sophomore, but developed into a reliable scorer as a junior (10.8 ppg). That isn't incredibly impressive on the surface, but on a team that had such balance in which its leading scorers averaged 13.7, 13.7, 12.3, 10.8, and 10.7, going from averaging 2.2 as a sophomore to 10.8 as a junior is at least impressive improvement.

That brings me to my last point, which is to say that Barnes teams have traditionally been very balanced, offensively, which doesn't lend itself to absurd scoring averages. Kevin Punter and Grant Williams (junior season) are the outliers. Not leading the SEC in scoring doesn't equate to "Barnes coaching the offense out of them". He has, in fact, coached some of the best offensive years of some of these guys, or generated improvement in their offensive games over their career. By no means am I calling him Phil Jackson. But if you want to continue blindly agreeing that he just neuters any and all offense from his players, have at it.

You are right about Chandler. I must've looked at his numbers wrong. Was really good as a freshman, but still played like a freshman a lot. He could've been elite if he stayed. That's right. Barnes could've helped him improve. I never said Barnes coaches offense out of these guys. He just doesn't do much in his system to teach it like he teaches defense.

I also agree that 13 ppg is rather arbitrary. I picked 13 because it included many of our leading scorers in Barnes's tenure without eliminating many of them right off the bat. And your point that a lot of these players had their best offensive years under Barnes, but only averaged 10-13 ppg, is sort of making the point I'm trying to make. Most of the players that play under Barnes at TN to this point seem to be peaking at around 12-13 ppg give or take. That isn't exactly setting the world on fire, and if that's the best mark these players are hitting then it is less impressive. Springer and Johnson were impressive for freshmen, but didn't exactly do anything that warranted going to the NBA after year one.

My whole point is not that guys can't score under Barnes. It is just that they have to have one of two basic skills to be able to do it in this offense: post scoring and/or mid to long range shooting.

 

[lifeisdeep]

Grant Williams obviously. We may have had others too, before Barnes coached it out of them.

Grant was the closest in decades for sure. But he still wasn’t what one would call a scorer, to my mind. When was the last time we even had someone average fifteen points a game? I would venture most of the teams in this league have at least one such player most every year. We seemingly have been legally barred from recruiting such.

 

[cncchris33]

You are right about Chandler. I must've looked at his numbers wrong. Was really good as a freshman, but still played like a freshman a lot. He could've been elite if he stayed. That's right. Barnes could've helped him improve. I never said Barnes coaches offense out of these guys. He just doesn't do much in his system to teach it like he teaches defense.

I also agree that 13 ppg is rather arbitrary. I picked 13 because it included many of our leading scorers in Barnes's tenure without eliminating many of them right off the bat. And your point that a lot of these players had their best offensive years under Barnes, but only averaged 10-13 ppg, is sort of making the point I'm trying to make. Most of the players that play under Barnes at TN to this point seem to be peaking at around 12-13 ppg give or take. That isn't exactly setting the world on fire, and if that's the best mark these players are hitting then it is less impressive. Springer and Johnson were impressive for freshmen, but didn't exactly do anything that warranted going to the NBA after year one.

My whole point is not that guys can't score under Barnes. It is just that they have to have one of two basic skills to be able to do it in this offense: post scoring and/or mid to long range shooting.

My original post that you quoted and replied to was directed at another poster who said that exact phrase, verbatim, though. And it was entirely framed in response to that idea. You then took it on a wild tangent in another direction as if I seemingly believed or explicitly stated that each of the guys I mentioned were offensive dynamos, which I never did.

 

[cncchris33]

Grant was the closest in decades for sure. But he still wasn’t what one would call a scorer, to my mind. When was the last time we even had someone average fifteen points a game? I would venture most of the teams in this league have at least one such player most every year. We seemingly have been legally barred from recruiting such.

The counter argument to this is how many teams have 4+ guys averaging double figures which Barnes's Tennessee teams have done 3 times (twice had 5 guys average double figures). Since when is balanced scoring a bad thing? Barnes's worst Tennessee team had Kevin Punter averaging 22.2 ppg.

 

[lifeisdeep]

The counter argument to this is how many teams have 4+ guys averaging double figures which Barnes's Tennessee teams have done 3 times (twice had 5 guys average double figures). Since when is balanced scoring a bad thing? Barnes's worst Tennessee team had Kevin Punter averaging 22.2 ppg.

My perspective is that the lack of a true scorer kills them every year in the NCAAT. All of our balanced guys go cold and can’t hit a barn and we get sent home.

 

[cncchris33]

My perspective is that the lack of a true scorer kills them every year in the NCAAT. All of our balanced guys go cold and can’t hit a barn and we get sent home.

It's definitely unfortunate, but the result is similar if your one go-to scorer goes cold, gets shut down, gets in foul trouble, etc., and you have no one else you can rely on. I like my odds with four 12 ppg guys over one 20 ppg guy. Recent history notwithstanding, we are much more likely to find success with more options than without. That Grant Williams team that had him averaging 18.8 ppg AND four additional double-figure scorers made it no further in the NCAAT than our latest team.