Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[chuckiepoo]

Everything you say is accurate. On the flip side, those same facts are what have led me to pivot from being “all in on Kellie” to having real doubts about whether she is capable of getting this program back to a final four/national title contender status. With the exception of Horston and Key, these players are Kellie’s recruits and she has constructed a team that has these liabilities. Yes, people can say, “well there have been extenuating circumstances” (and I have been one of those) but Kellie is an unforgiving business and you either get results or you don’t. Sorry, if you brought in a bunch of workhouses that can’t run with the race horses, you have to face those consequences. And the one player Kellie has signed who could be a race horse has been buried. We both agree that Justine was not ready to jump in against Ohio State. But even in this gauntlet of an opening schedule, the LVs had several games which they won comfortably. A smart coach would have said, these are the games to get Justine up to speed and let my most talented players gel. Instead, she wasted those games with a ridiculous platoon subs that gave precious minutes to players she can’t put on the floor because they are not good enough. If you recruit an upgrade over existing players, you have to get upgrade in the line-up and that also means you can’t let personal loyalties keep you committed to an inferior player. If Justine were sitting behind a team of All-Americans that would be one thing- you have to wait your turn on this elite team (i.e. how it use to be for the LVs). But, Justine is sitting behind players who could not get near the national team. Kellie blew it and you don’t get do overs in super competitive business where you are paid big $ to make the right calls.

Et tu?

 

[madtownvol]

Et tu?

People forget that Brutus deserved more playing time. You reap what you sow.

 

[chuckiepoo]

People forget that Brutus deserved more playing time. You reap what you sow.

Was it just me or did Kellie seem less than willing to surrender the spotlight?

 

[madtownvol]

Was it just me or did Kellie seem less than willing to surrender the spotlight?

Context?

 

[Coach Jumper]

Everything you say is accurate. On the flip side, those same facts are what have led me to pivot from being “all in on Kellie” to having real doubts about whether she is capable of getting this program back to a final four/national title contender status. With the exception of Horston and Key, these players are Kellie’s recruits and she has constructed a team that has these liabilities. Yes, people can say, “well there have been extenuating circumstances” (and I have been one of those) but Kellie is an unforgiving business and you either get results or you don’t. Sorry, if you brought in a bunch of workhouses that can’t run with the race horses, you have to face those consequences. And the one player Kellie has signed who could be a race horse has been buried. We both agree that Justine was not ready to jump in against Ohio State. But even in this gauntlet of an opening schedule, the LVs had several games which they won comfortably. A smart coach would have said, these are the games to get Justine up to speed and let my most talented players gel. Instead, she wasted those games with a ridiculous platoon subs that gave precious minutes to players she can’t put on the floor because they are not good enough. If you recruit an upgrade over existing players, you have to get that upgrade in the line-up and that also means you can’t let personal loyalties keep you committed to an inferior player. If Justine were sitting behind a team of All-Americans that would be one thing- you have to wait your turn on this elite team (i.e. how it use to be for the LVs). But, Justine is sitting behind players who could not get near the national team. Kellie blew it and you don’t get do overs in super competitive business where you are paid big $ to make the right calls.

Boom!

 

[glv98]

Everything you say is accurate. On the flip side, those same facts are what have led me to pivot from being “all in on Kellie” to having real doubts about whether she is capable of getting this program back to a final four/national title contender status. With the exception of Horston and Key, these players are Kellie’s recruits and she has constructed a team that has these liabilities. Yes, people can say, “well there have been extenuating circumstances” (and I have been one of those) but Kellie is an unforgiving business and you either get results or you don’t. Sorry, if you brought in a bunch of workhouses that can’t run with the race horses, you have to face those consequences. And the one player Kellie has signed who could be a race horse has been buried. We both agree that Justine was not ready to jump in against Ohio State. But even in this gauntlet of an opening schedule, the LVs had several games which they won comfortably. A smart coach would have said, these are the games to get Justine up to speed and let my most talented players gel. Instead, she wasted those games with a ridiculous platoon subs that gave precious minutes to players she can’t put on the floor because they are not good enough. If you recruit an upgrade over existing players, you have to get that upgrade in the line-up and that also means you can’t let personal loyalties keep you committed to an inferior player. If Justine were sitting behind a team of All-Americans that would be one thing- you have to wait your turn on this elite team (i.e. how it use to be for the LVs). But, Justine is sitting behind players who could not get near the national team. Kellie blew it and you don’t get do overs in super competitive business where you are paid big $ to make the right calls.

I agree with all this except the relative importance of the development of JP to this whole mess of a season. It's about 10th on the list of what went wrong. IMO the most important development of JP that was missed was physical development. Honestly she's so off kilter and off balance physically when in the game it almost feels dangerous for her.

I totally agree KJH was way out of her depth trying to integrate new, better players with those she recruited over. Her subs early in the season have always driven us crazy but this season she's really paid the piper for it.

Bottom line, we said from the get go this year would be the big test for KJH in determining if she can be an elite coach. So far, she cannot. She's a good, competent, ethical coach, but as some always feared, not a great one. And not likely to become one almost 25 yrs into her career.

Even if they make a run in the tournies, which there is zero indication might happen, the question will be WtF it took so long. And nothing looks better after this season. I haven't felt this discouraged about the LVs since the worst of the Holly days. With no recruiting and the league getting tougher with Vic back, it's hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.

No amount of playing time for JP is likely to change any of that.

 

[Volfan2012]

I think what you can easily see this season is the team has failed to improve in any of the areas that it needs improvement. Those would be defense, decision making and turnovers. Not only this year you have to say all four years that Kellie has coached the team. She is able to give you a good team meaning one that finishes in the top half of the SEC wins 20 games a season and gets to the NCAA tournament. Kellie is not going to get you much more than those type seasons for several reason. First is we have to agree she can't recruit just hasn't happened and that is the number one reason you can't win more. She has also shown no ability to understand team personnel who needs to play or how they need to play. No ability to fix the turnover problem. To me last game we played against Miss St looked like Holly was back. We were forcing everything. Bad decision making, unforced turnovers, stand around of offense, weak defensive play. I dislike where we are now and where we seem to be going. Just no way you can fix what we have coming back without some sort of miracle portal recruiting performance. Were heading downward just like in the last three Holly years don't understand why we would want to continue that.
Four years is enough to know what you are getting. Geno built UConn from nothing in four years when he began there. Dawn did it in four years at SC, Mulkey in four years at Baylor and looks like almost there in two years at LSU. I hope we don't keep going down the rabbit hole. No use to continue on this path if we have to start over again time to do it with a better coach. This time one that we know is capable of getting the job done by the fourth season.

 

[glv98]

I think what you can easily see this season is the team has failed to improve in any of the areas that it needs improvement. Those would be defense, decision making and turnovers

Agree, improvement has been slow and incremental (Tess) or mysteriously beyond her grasp (Sara). There's debate on whether or how much most of her players will be able to improve. I'm afraid some are hitting their heads on their ceilings. That calls out who KJH has been able to recruit. It keeps her in the viscious cycle of not being able to snag elite recruits bc she doesn't win elite level bc she doesn't get elite recruits. To make matters worse, she did actually snag an ultra elite recruit from the portal last year but has never really been able to take advantage of that effectively.

She is able to give you a good team meaning one that finishes in the top half of the SEC wins 20 games a season and gets to the NCAA tournament

I think that's exactly where we're heading. I don't think we'll ever be Old Dominion or La Tech, more likely Georgia or Alabama. Decent, but not really a factor.

 

[Darth_Vol]

I agree with all this except the relative importance of the development of JP to this whole mess of a season.

 

[djtee]

Wrong thread

 

[LUVMESUMVOL]

I think what you can easily see this season is the team has failed to improve in any of the areas that it needs improvement. Those would be defense, decision making and turnovers. Not only this year you have to say all four years that Kellie has coached the team. She is able to give you a good team meaning one that finishes in the top half of the SEC wins 20 games a season and gets to the NCAA tournament. Kellie is not going to get you much more than those type seasons for several reason. First is we have to agree she can't recruit just hasn't happened and that is the number one reason you can't win more. She has also shown no ability to understand team personnel who needs to play or how they need to play. No ability to fix the turnover problem. To me last game we played against Miss St looked like Holly was back. We were forcing everything. Bad decision making, unforced turnovers, stand around of offense, weak defensive play. I dislike where we are now and where we seem to be going. Just no way you can fix what we have coming back without some sort of miracle portal recruiting performance. Were heading downward just like in the last three Holly years don't understand why we would want to continue that.
Four years is enough to know what you are getting. Geno built UConn from nothing in four years when he began there. Dawn did it in four years at SC, Mulkey in four years at Baylor and looks like almost there in two years at LSU. I hope we don't keep going down the rabbit hole. No use to continue on this path if we have to start over again time to do it with a better coach. This time one that we know is capable of getting the job done by the fourth season.

I approve this message.The fact that she will not be able to recruit at an elite level is my reason for change.Key being out was a blow but this team should still be fundamentally better than what we are witnessing

 

[chuckiepoo]

Context?

Reference to the postgame after Justine had hit two bombs and one in the key. Did not get an effusive praise type reaction from Kellie.

 

[lvocd]

I just can't get out of my head how different this season likely would have played out if Tamari Key hadn't unknowingly come into it with blood clots in her lungs. Everything went south quickly as, quite possibly, even her teammates may have had some doubts about her desire and effort. She was out there giving her all but going nowhere fast, and only after extensive testing and a persistent parent, everyone finds out she was lucky to have not died out there trying to play. And then when she didn't look as good as she did last season, being vilified on social media.

Meanwhile the losses, and the stress of what everyone finally came to understand about Tamari's condition, had already taken their toll.

And all THAT stress led to a suspension of another star player, as well as a scary injury to another top player. Confidence tanked, and losses piled up.

I fully believe if Tamari were completely healthy our season would be at a much different place today. Key had become one of the more dominant defensive stoppers in the country by season's end LAST year, so there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have, in her senior season, absolutely crushed it this season. Having her, Jackson, Horston, Hollingshead/Franklin and Tess all year? Come on. We have to know Kellie would be looking a lot better these days.

 

[Volfaninfl2]

I watched all the games Justine played in the off season. She was not a starter. She generally stayed away from those fighting for a rebound under the basket. She ran down the court, and took up her position for a 3 point shot, and basically waited for a pass. She did at times show quick hands and really good passing.

At 6’4, and a player who can shoot, Justine has a lot of potential, but she needs to become stronger, tougher, and more versatile. She needs to become more like a Rickea type of player, rather than just a set 3 point shooter.

I believe Kellie is working to help Justine broaden her basketball abilities, but right now, Justine does not have the experience of holding her own against the big shoving SEC competition. I think Justine probably also has a high basketball IQ. She will be great, but she needs to get stronger, develop more shots, and be able to fight for rebounds, and all this takes time. Right now, she is a Freshman, with stronger, more experienced players ahead of her. She may be able to help the team this year, but after improving her confidence and strength, she will definitely be big for our team next year. Looking forward to big things for Justine.

 

[Vols2015]

All in all, we have to play this season out. Let’s see what our Lady Vols and Coaching staff can do to close the year out. If it’s not at least elite 8, then I can agree it’s time to move forward with a new head coach. Results matter here, not just getting by.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I watched all the games Justine played in the off season. She was not a starter. She generally stayed away from those fighting for a rebound under the basket. She ran down the court, and took up her position for a 3 point shot, and basically waited for a pass. She did at times show quick hands and really good passing.

At 6’4, and a player who can shoot, Justine has a lot of potential, but she needs to become stronger, tougher, and more versatile. She needs to become more like a Rickea type of player, rather than just a set 3 point shooter.

I believe Kellie is working to help Justine broaden her basketball abilities, but right now, Justine does not have the experience of holding her own against the big shoving SEC competition. I think Justine probably also has a high basketball IQ. She will be great, but she needs to get stronger, develop more shots, and be able to fight for rebounds, and all this takes time. Right now, she is a Freshman, with stronger, more experienced players ahead of her. She may be able to help the team this year, but after improving her confidence and strength, she will definitely be big for our team next year. Looking forward to big things for Justine.

"She ran down the court, and took up her position for a 3 point shot, and basically waited for a pass"
How does this differ from what we see in Tess?

How do I get better so I can play more?
How do I play more so I can get better?

It is a vicious circle fl2

 

[madtownvol]

I agree with all this except the relative importance of the development of JP to this whole mess of a season. It's about 10th on the list of what went wrong. IMO the most important development of JP that was missed was physical development. Honestly she's so off kilter and off balance physically when in the game it almost feels dangerous for her.

I totally agree KJH was way out of her depth trying to integrate new, better players with those she recruited over. Her subs early in the season have always driven us crazy but this season she's really paid the piper for it.

Bottom line, we said from the get go this year would be the big test for KJH in determining if she can be an elite coach. So far, she cannot. She's a good, competent, ethical coach, but as some always feared, not a great one. And not likely to become one almost 25 yrs into her career.

Even if they make a run in the tournies, which there is zero indication might happen, the question will be WtF it took so long. And nothing looks better after this season. I haven't felt this discouraged about the LVs since the worst of the Holly days. With no recruiting and the league getting tougher with Vic back, it's hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.

No amount of playing time for JP is likely to change any of that.

Yarden Garzon is a 6-3 freshman guard (from Israel) who was a lower ranked player than Justine. She has been a starter for Indiana, torched OSU for 20 pts and hit some big threes in their win last night over Iowa. She is built very much like Justine but does not handle the ball as well. A 6-3 guard with range creates mismatches and Indiana has a found a way to use her effectively. Why is it so different for Justine at Tennessee?

The bigger point is not about Justine but a counter productive coaching philosophy that does not build on players strengths but focuses on their limitations. "Rickea ain't rebounding enough so lets suspend her indefinitely from the team" is probably not a great human potential strategy.

We really don't know what Justine could be bringing the team at this point if she had been given more opportunity. There are a lot of highly recruited freshman who are having big impacts. Are we to believe that Justine is just the one case where the ranking services got it completely wrong and she can't play.

And the choice does not have to be Tess or Justine. Put those two in with Hollingshead, Horston and Jackson you have an interesting team. If you don't want JH at PG pair Justine with tess when Jordan or Rickea are on the bench. Right now, the team's offensive production goes into a tail spin when Rickea is out,. Maybe Justine could help out there,.

 

[Majors]

Yarden Garzon is a 6-3 freshman guard (from Israel) who was a lower ranked player than Justine. She has been a starter for Indiana, torched OSU for 20 pts and hit some big threes in their win last night over Iowa. She is built very much like Justine but does not handle the ball as well. A 6-3 guard with range creates mismatches and Indiana has a found to use her effectively. Why is it so different for Justine at Tennessee?

The bigger point is not about Justine but a counter productive coaching philosophy that does not build on players strengths but focused on their limitations. Rickea ain't rebounding enough so lets suspend her indefinitely from the team is probably not a great strategy.

We really don't know what Justine could be bringing the team at this point if she had been given more opportunity. There are a lot of highly recruited freshman who are having big impacts. Are we to believe that Justine is just the one case where the ranking services got it completely wrong and she can't play.

And the choice does not have to be Tess or Justine. Put those two in with Hollingshead, Horston and Jackson you have an interesting team. If you don;t want JH at PG pair Justine with tess when Jordan or Rickea are on the bench. Right now, the teams offensive production goes into a tail spin when Rickea is out,. Maybe Justine could help out there,.

“The bigger point is not about Justine but a counter productive coaching philosophy that does not build on players strengths but focused on their limitations”

It’s been said for awhile, who’s not getting her ready or setting the game around her when she’s in.

 

[Volfaninfl2]

"She ran down the court, and took up her position for a 3 point shot, and basically waited for a pass"
How does this differ from what we see in Tess?

How do I get better if I don't play more?
How do I play more so I can get better?

It is a vicious circle fl2

Tess is a stronger more experienced player who does a lot of the little things, and she brings a calmness and leadership to the team. She also has broadened her game. She defends, gets steals, rebounds, dives for balls, and drives to the basket, as well as shooting 3s.

Justine has gotten minutes this season, and she will get more, but we are getting to the point where in close games we play a smaller roster and the more important thing is to win the game, rather than get a Freshman more practice.

Justine will come back next year a stronger more confident player, and she will play a lot, maybe as a starter. Looking forward to great things for Justine.

 

[Majors]

I watched all the games Justine played in the off season. She was not a starter. She generally stayed away from those fighting for a rebound under the basket. She ran down the court, and took up her position for a 3 point shot, and basically waited for a pass. She did at times show quick hands and really good passing.

At 6’4, and a player who can shoot, Justine has a lot of potential, but she needs to become stronger, tougher, and more versatile. She needs to become more like a Rickea type of player, rather than just a set 3 point shooter.

I believe Kellie is working to help Justine broaden her basketball abilities, but right now, Justine does not have the experience of holding her own against the big shoving SEC competition. I think Justine probably also has a high basketball IQ. She will be great, but she needs to get stronger, develop more shots, and be able to fight for rebounds, and all this takes time. Right now, she is a Freshman, with stronger, more experienced players ahead of her. She may be able to help the team this year, but after improving her confidence and strength, she will definitely be big for our team next year. Looking forward to big things for Justine.

Was Lofton a starter? The trail 3 got him in the rafters.

 

[madtownvol]

Sadly, Kellie could have taken the high ground but she does not like to change her position.

 

[T_Vol376]

About a dozen games back, Justine hit I believe 2 deep 3's and about a 15 footer...The interviewer excitingly asked Harper what she thought of it....It was not what she said that caught my attention, but the look on her face as she said it...It was sort of a yeah, so what, look...She has played very little since.

This makes no sense! Why, why, WHY?!

 

[Lurker]

I watched all the games Justine played in the off season. She was not a starter. She generally stayed away from those fighting for a rebound under the basket. She ran down the court, and took up her position for a 3 point shot, and basically waited for a pass. She did at times show quick hands and really good passing.

At 6’4, and a player who can shoot, Justine has a lot of potential, but she needs to become stronger, tougher, and more versatile. She needs to become more like a Rickea type of player, rather than just a set 3 point shooter.

I believe Kellie is working to help Justine broaden her basketball abilities, but right now, Justine does not have the experience of holding her own against the big shoving SEC competition. I think Justine probably also has a high basketball IQ. She will be great, but she needs to get stronger, develop more shots, and be able to fight for rebounds, and all this takes time. Right now, she is a Freshman, with stronger, more experienced players ahead of her. She may be able to help the team this year, but after improving her confidence and strength, she will definitely be big for our team next year. Looking forward to big things for Justine.

Saw much of the same, but you can't discount the fact that she was selected for teams (including national teams) because solid coaches regularly identified her as among the most elite players in her age group in the country. That's exactly what our fans were told when she was recruited here. You also cannot discount that, unlike every other player in her entire class in the entire country, she chose to attend UT. She was our recruiting class (except for a walk on) and she put all her trust in this program. This staff has had opportunities to expose her to the college game and it has simply avoided doing so for inexplicable reasons. She is obviously just as good as multiple players who getting time regularly, and her potential far exceeds all but a few players on the roster. These kids learn by doing. It is indefensible to leave her on the bench given the product we are seeing this season. Had she been brought along with reasonable amounts of game time experience, she might by now be the very person needed to open up this stagnant offense. And if it took using a zone to protect her defensively, there are a lot worse things that could have (and have) happened.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Saw much of the same, but you can't discount the fact that she was selected for teams (including national teams) because solid coaches regularly identified her as among the most elite players in her age group in the country. That's exactly what our fans were told when she was recruited here. You also cannot discount that, unlike every other player in her entire class in the entire country, she chose to attend UT. She was our recruiting class (except for a walk on) and she put all her trust in this program. This staff has had opportunities to expose her to the college game and it has simply avoided doing so for inexplicable reasons. She is obviously just as good as multiple players who getting time regularly, and her potential far exceeds all but a few players on the roster. These kids learn by doing. It is indefensible to leave her on the bench given the product we are seeing this season. Had she been brought along with reasonable amounts of game time experience, she might by now be the very person needed to open up this stagnant offense. And if it took using a zone to protect her defensively, there are a lot worse things that could have (and have) happened.

Yes!!

 

[glv98]

“The bigger point is not about Justine but a counter productive coaching philosophy that does not build on players strengths but focused on their limitations”

It’s been said for awhile, who’s not getting her ready or setting the game around her when she’s in.

Because so many of her players have such serious limitations, yes the coach has to focus on them alot. Kellie refers to it as "putting them in a position where they can succeed." In other words, compensating for their weaknessess. I'm sure every coach wants to focus on the positives, but too busy plugging the hole in the boat to have that luxuary. Part of what makes coaching hard.

the more important thing is to win the game, rather than get a Freshman more practice.

Another thing that makes coaching hard. How much of today should I sacrifice for tomorrow. Also remember, Tess is here 2 more years so she's the future too.