Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

#1,904
#1,904
Voluble2 said:
Not really. The team has gotten better under her and I think women's basketball is a low enough priority that it is good enough for now. Recruiting will be what gets her if anything does. Two years and counting since her last high school commitment. I am not counting the ones who are so far down the road that they can't affect whether she is still here or not. Anything can happen between now and then.

There is no real commitment to get back to being a perennial final four team and that is what protects her more than anything. And we aren't even bothering to compete with NIL apparently. Either the dollars aren't there or Kellie is not letting the recruits know they are available. We should have a huge advantage with NIL so it is really almost criminally negligent that we can't outbid other programs for kids. This is how you can tell we are not serious about being a contender. Kids shouldn't be leaning towards us and then go elsewhere because of a better offer. If we aren't going to pay up then we need to just shut it down entirely because all of our efforts will be futile.

This year is probably Kellie's high water mark for talent, which is why the season has been so disappointing. As you can see, even with us as fully loaded as we are ever likely to be, and with UConn being down to 7 players, we are not really competitive with them. And most of the fanbase is satisfied enough with that state of affairs that we are unlikely to make a change anytime soon.

But if it comes to it, I do think White will do a good job finding a coach for us. We are a program living in the past, and we are going to have to let that go before we can move forward. I think White can do that.
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Is it disappointing or expected? She’s been a D1 coach for 20 years but gets treated as if she needs more time to prove she can win. In 20 years of you haven’t won, that’s expected not disappointing.
 
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#1,905
#1,905
Ya she needs to go, they hired her as a safe under the radar attempt at a cheap fix, they need to get a splash hire and get away from the summit tree .. the name brand of the program still can win easy just need the right coach and Harper isn’t the answer
 
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#1,906
#1,906
Harper was a good player and seems like a genuinely good person, but the job is too big for her. Would probably take missing the tournament for her to be in hot water after this season. Next season should absolutely be a make or break year for Harper, though, barring a deep tournament run this season.
 
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#1,907
#1,907
Voluble2 said:
Not really. The team has gotten better under her and I think women's basketball is a low enough priority that it is good enough for now. Recruiting will be what gets her if anything does. Two years and counting since her last high school commitment. I am not counting the ones who are so far down the road that they can't affect whether she is still here or not. Anything can happen between now and then.

There is no real commitment to get back to being a perennial final four team and that is what protects her more than anything. And we aren't even bothering to compete with NIL apparently. Either the dollars aren't there or Kellie is not letting the recruits know they are available. We should have a huge advantage with NIL so it is really almost criminally negligent that we can't outbid other programs for kids. This is how you can tell we are not serious about being a contender. Kids shouldn't be leaning towards us and then go elsewhere because of a better offer. If we aren't going to pay up then we need to just shut it down entirely because all of our efforts will be futile.

This year is probably Kellie's high water mark for talent, which is why the season has been so disappointing. As you can see, even with us as fully loaded as we are ever likely to be, and with UConn being down to 7 players, we are not really competitive with them. And most of the fanbase is satisfied enough with that state of affairs that we are unlikely to make a change anytime soon.

But if it comes to it, I do think White will do a good job finding a coach for us. We are a program living in the past, and we are going to have to let that go before we can move forward. I think White can do that.
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If college sports has been reduced to trying to out-bribe other schools for talent, then they should fold up college athletics altogether. NIL is a joke. It should be banned from having any role in recruiting. And I'd also argue that there should be no NIL deals for anybody until the end of their freshman season. That is the way to keep it from just being a bribery tool. If, after a year, a booster wants to give a player money for promotional activities, jerseys/T-shirts etc, fine--go for it. But it should be kept out of recruiting.
 
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#1,908
#1,908
Kellie needs to return to coaching at schools like Western Carolina and Missouri State where she had a reasonable amount of success. She is over her coaching ability at P5 school like NC State and UT. UT needs to find the best head coach available, man or woman.
 
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#1,910
#1,910
T-for-Tennessee said:
Fulmer was a good coach but a spectacularly hideous judge of coaching talent.
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the bar for AD performance couldn’t have been lower after Hart and Currie, and Fulmer couldn’t even clear that.

Hart and Currie at least gave us Barnes and Vitello. Fulmer accomplished literally nothing positive as AD.
 
#1,911
#1,911
Majors said:
Is it disappointing or expected? She’s been a D1 coach for 20 years but gets treated as if she needs more time to prove she can win. In 20 years of you haven’t won, that’s expected not disappointing.
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Even if expected, it is still disappointing for those who want the program to do well.

Last year would have been disappointing too but for a three ball at the buzzer against a team which should never have been that close to winning. That erased a lot of people's memories because it showed progress --- Sweet Sixteen Wooo! But given how much more talent this team has than that one did you would expect better results and we aren't getting them.
 
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#1,912
#1,912
Voluble2 said:
Even if expected, it is still disappointing for those who want the program to do well.

Last year would have been disappointing too but for a three ball at the buzzer against a team which should never have been that close to winning. That erased a lot of people's memories because it showed progress --- Sweet Sixteen Wooo! But given how much more talent this team has than that one did you would expect better results and we aren't getting them.
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That’s fair. Only good thing about this is is we haven’t lost to the bad teams like last year. But disagree on progress, Belmont outplayed us from start to almost finish and showed we might be closer to the Top OVC (last year) than UConn.
 
#1,913
#1,913
SGMVols said:
Probably not, but next year will. No recruits incoming and losing our two best players to the WNBA. I really worry if our tournament streak will survive next year. We are going to be mediocre.
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This is why I think you make the change this season.
 
#1,918
#1,918
OrngeJuiceJones said:
I don't feel good about Monday but we'll see
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It’ll be more pressure than tonight. Another benchmark game with SEC implications instead of national. And SC looming, how does this team look heading into facing potentially the #1 team without beating any ranked opponents yet.
 
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#1,919
#1,919
OrngeJuiceJones said:
Danny White it's about time for a change. Kara Lawson?
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As long as Duke will have her I would be shocked if she comes back to Tennessee.

Duke gives her the freedom to do things, say things, advocate for public positions that are important to her.

As an example, Kara took the stage at a rally for Biden in 2020 in Durham. She can't do that at Tennessee.
 
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#1,920
#1,920
Majors said:
Monday depending on how it goes might be a sign. Win she buys some equity for fans to hold onto, lose and it’ll be some disappointment….lose by 15+ and it’ll be ugly.
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I thought that LSU was the game we were least likely to win of the two. If by some miracle we had beaten UConn we would be full of ourselves and not as hungry. LSU would be ready for us in their place and would want to beat us just that much more. And after a loss I thought we would be desultory and have trouble getting up for LSU. We would be doubting ourselves and be questioning whether we can really beat a good team at all. And of course LSU would be emboldened and full of confidence having witnessed our beatdown.

Kellie has to make it hard for White to make a change and about all that is left would be winning the SEC regular season or tournament championship, or making a deep run in the NCAAs. If I were White, I would be looking very heavily at what we have coming in as far as talent goes. There is really no upside to waiting when there is nothing coming in. And there is a LOT of downside to waiting too long.

Another thing about the portal is that I think four full classes of difference makers who wanted to be somewhere else all moved at the first opportunity this past year. Now that the portal is not new I think you will have fewer difference makers available since most will be settled in somewhere and you will just have a single class which has not had the opportunity to move. So you will get those along with the kids who have developed above their initial level and want to move up in competition. The future portal classes will likely never be as deep and fruitful as the initial one, so thinking we are going to replace a Rickea and Horston every year is foolish.

Look at it this way. With high school kids you have to recruit your full complement of difference makers over the course of years. With the portal you have to recruit the same number of them every year or every other year. Barring an NIL machine that ourclasses everyone else's, that just isn't going to happen.
 
#1,921
#1,921
I needed some time for my head to clear after that game.
CKJH is not going anywhere this year. But a few things have to happen, or not happen as the case may be, for her not to be on the hot seat for next season.
In somewhat chronological order:
Even if you lose, don't get blown out against LSU and SC.
Must win the games at home with Ole Miss and road games at Mississippi St and at Arkansas.
Don't lose earlier than expected in the SEC playoffs.
Don't lose in the first 2 rounds of the NCAA tournament.
Must, must , must land either multiple, highly ranked recruits in the 2024 class (Which will give hope moving foward) or hit a gold mine in the portal. If neither of these two events occur, next year's team, which will consist of purely CKJH players (unless Horston and Key decide to stay), will be so mediocre that the AD will have no choice but to start looking around.
Right now, they are about a top 20-25 team. Their record proves that.
They have beaten teams they should have and have lost to every decent team, except the home game versus Colorado.
That's why the remaining SEC games against Ole Miss, Miss St and Arky are so important. They represent the potential for bad losses. Something that would really damage the team's NCAA seeding (I know, I'm optimistic).
A few quick thoughts on why tonight's game was so bad for UT:
It was in front of the largest crowd at TBA since 2015. It was the largest margin of a loss, in a true home game, in the series history.
Uconn really played only 5 players.
Those 5 accounted for 189 out of 200 minutes played.
 
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#1,922
#1,922
OrngeJuiceJones said:
She's done that in year 2 at Duke and they were down. Kellie in year 4 and unranked and possible on the bubble.
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Year three. Still think it was a cheap way out to cancel their season in 2020. Really gave her a lot of extra time to build her culture and recruit. Very advantageous compared to what coaches who were actively coaching were dealing with at that time.
 
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#1,924
#1,924
Coaching is a problem here, even a blind man can see this.

In the very first minute of the game, Darby loses the player she is guarding...That player bombs an uncontested 3 ball....In the first damn minute, we get out played...

Good coaching would have drilled into the players to closely guard their man, don't play help defense and let your player go...
 
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#1,925
#1,925
It’s a travesty that the program Pat built has had to suffer under mediocre coaches since she left. Both are good people and Lady Vol legends for the contributions they’ve made, but they’re not remotely suited to lead a team to a national championship.

Women’s basketball should always hold a special place at Tennessee, and I hope Danny finally decides to give the program the leader it needs to return to relevance. Pat literally put the game of women’s college basketball on her shoulders—it’s time to stop squandering her legacy.
 
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