Bowl Game question… (Hyatt sitting out?)

[OrangeTsar]

It is extremely unlikely that UT will have its full roster available for any bowl game other than a play-off game. Generation changing money is at stake and most high draft choice candidates cannot afford to accept the risk of injury in what is essentially an exhibition game. I don’t like it as a fan, but it is reality.

After what Hyatt especially contributed to this team this year, I can be nothing but very grateful and thankful. Would make me sad if he sat out, but I would not hold it against him in the least.
What happened with Tillman this year was a stark reminder of how quickly things can change. Go get paid young man, and thanks for the memories, especially in that Bama game

 

[cobbwebb0710]

I randomly speculate the CJH quits. Wants to devote all his time to his model airplane hobby.

Source or I call bull!

 

[McDad]

Further explanation: If I were a guaranteed draft pick midway through a season, I would still play. There is a difference in commitment (hat tip to JP) in that scenario than in a bowl game which doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme.

 

[Stephen Gray]

No sir. These grand noble assessments can be used for grand efforts of good. They can also be used for grand efforts of evil. I can just imagine the Nazi leaders throwing this hot garbage out to their underlings just as easily as Allied leaders throwing this out before the D day landings.

My commitment to others (outside of my family) is conditional on my health, reputation and personal ethics. I wouldn't climb you rickety ladder to work in an unsafe manner because "the team" needed the job done to get paid. I wouldn't leave the scene of an accident because your insurance on the company vehicle might suffer.

My primary duty is to myself and my family. Risking an injury to play in a meaningless game (my opinion) is not a smart risk / reward decision. I don't fault anyone who makes that decision differently than I do. But I would not be manipulated into making a bad decision.

It depends on the job really and also what one commits to. Football is a physical team sport. They put their health on the line every time they play. Plenty of people who want to cancel football think every game is meaningless. I would rather they finish out, but I do understand the reasoning.

As for commitment others, your values are completely fine, but not all jobs have the same expectations. If you are a firefighter you will be expected to run into a burning building against your interest. A soldier has a duty to the mission that might supersede personal safety.

Football is not those things, so I don’t want to suggest it’s that serious, but the expectation of an athlete might not be the same as that of a an accountant in terms of risk.

 

[Stephen Gray]

The stats would show relative risk which would be enlightening in this discussion.

Think about it this way, why do the coaches occasionally prohibit QB's from running? Or, neglect to use the more talented WR or DB to return punts and kicks? Those coaches are managing the players exposure to additional risk. Smart decision, too, because that player getting injured could affect the season. Well, a player getting injured during a bowl by exposing themselves to additional risk could affect their income for a lifetime. To me, it is the same thing at the core.

Would be helpful for figuring out some best practices I think.

 

[youre no daisy]

its that players choice and i can respect it , but i think they should declare it at the start of the season because if risk of injury is the main deciding factor it shouldnt matter what bowl game they are opt out of ,but how many of those whodecide to sit would do the same in the playoffs,

 

[NighthawkVol]

If its NY6 they play.

Kenny Pickett skipped their NY6 game last year. Most expect Bryce Young and Will Anderson to sit if they don't make the playoff. Players skipping NY6 games is nothing new.

 

[Stephen Gray]

its that players choice and i can respect it , but i think they should declare it at the start of the season because if risk of injury is the main deciding factor it shouldnt matter what bowl game they are opt out of ,but how many of those whodecide to sit would do the same in the playoffs,

I like the negotiate it early on approach too. Not for the exact same reasons, but because it sort of clarified your obligation.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

No sir. These grand noble assessments can be used for grand efforts of good. They can also be used for grand efforts of evil. I can just imagine the Nazi leaders throwing this hot garbage out to their underlings just as easily as Allied leaders throwing this out before the D day landings.

My commitment to others (outside of my family) is conditional on my health, reputation and personal ethics. I wouldn't climb you rickety ladder to work in an unsafe manner because "the team" needed the job done to get paid. I wouldn't leave the scene of an accident because your insurance on the company vehicle might suffer.

My primary duty is to myself and my family. Risking an injury to play in a meaningless game (my opinion) is not a smart risk / reward decision. I don't fault anyone who makes that decision differently than I do. But I would not be manipulated into making a bad decision.

Hmm.

Okay, I get it.

But let's draw two extreme cases.

One is the person who always--I mean always--acts in his own self-interest. Him and his family, they are all that matters in his decision matrix.

The other is the person who always--100%--acts selflessly, without regard for his own well-being.

Would you want your local fire fighters to be more the first type, or more the second? How about the police who roll out to your kids' school if there's an active shooter reported? Would you be okay with your barber quitting halfway through your haircut because it would be better for him to leave work for home? Can your surgeon leave the OR because his daughter's birthday party starts in 30 minutes?

Now flip to the opposite extreme. How about the Air Force combat controller who, already at risk of bleeding out, jumps up and empties clip after clip into the enemy bunker to hold their attention while a helicopter full of his buddies is making a risky landing nearby? How about the Marine who is on sentry duty in his operating base, hears a radio call for help from his platoon out on patrol in a nearby village, and without any regard for his own safety or future earnings, jumps into a HMMWV with a buddy to go rescue them, making trip after trip into the ambush zone to pull out wounded buddies?

I think we'll both agree the extreme cases on the selfish side are ridiculous. Meanwhile, the extreme cases on the selfless side are heroic.*

I'm not saying our lads are analogous to either of these extreme cases. I'm not saying football players are soldiers, or fire fighters. It's just a game. But I'm not saying they're barbers or office workers, either. In truth, if you were to say they're more like A or B, you'd have to put them closer to the life savers and combatants. That's just who they are, the mind set they normally display.

And if they are closer to a warrior caste than the opposite, then their sense of self-respect and self-worth is going to be tied up in some of the same values (selflessness, duty, courage) that drive soldiers.

~ ~ ~

Friend, you're performing a risk assessment in your head, on behalf of unnamed Vols players, as if they were you, in your current circumstances. But I don't think they are.

In any case, what we debate here is meaningless to the lads. They're each going to make up their own minds, based on what THEY value.

Go Vols!


* Both are references to recent Medal of Honor winnners: Dave Chapman, USAF, and Dakota Meyer, USMC. Worth googling their stories, both are inspiring.

 

[hog88]

Friend, do you really think Inky Johnson feels better about his injury because it happened mid-season rather than in a bowl game?

Do you believe Cedric Tillman is less worried about his injury because it happened early in the season?

Football is a risky sport. Nonetheless, in any single game (other than bumps and bruises), the chance of a serious injury, a season-ending event, is low, and the chance of a life-altering one like Inky's is even more rare. But the risk does compound from game to game.

So if you're afraid of getting hurt and losing your chance of getting to the pros, you should sit out your senior season. Not just the last game of it, where the risk is relatively very low.

Or, even smarter, just quit playing football so you don't have to worry about long-term effects like encephalitis (the long-term brain injury).

~ ~ ~

I don't agree with any of that. I'm just following your and McDad's thoughts to their natural conclusion. From your position, it doesn't make sense to sit out one single game, where the risk of significant injury is pretty low. It would make a lot more sense to sit out a big part of your final season, where the cumulative risk is much, much higher. Or quit football entirely because the lifetime risk is even higher than any single season.

I think the lads should play. Worrying about injury is a loser way to approach the game. If you're in it, you should be in it.

Again, won't stop supporting the lads who might decide to sit out, but I personally don't think any of them should.

Go Vols!

The entire first section of your post is meaningless and most can't be answered except by the actual players.

I don't think they should opt out of bowl games either but for the ones that do I respect and don't question their decision.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The entire first section of your post is meaningless and most can't be answered except by the actual players.

I don't think they should opt out of bowl games either but for the ones that do I respect and don't question their decision.

None of this is meaningless to the people (us) who are thinking it through. Meaningless to the players, sure, but they were never going to log on to Vn.com and read our posts anyway, right?

As for your last sentence, we both agree 100%. I've said the very same thing more than once already in this thread.

 

[hog88]

Again, risk in inherent in the game. Choosing risk over safety when it doesn't mean anything or enhance one's position in future employment in the risky profession is not a smart move. I fully support people making unintelligent decisions but I would absolutely opt out and advise anyone who asked my opinion the same.

That's a question I have asked myself when players started sitting out bowl games, "how would I advise my son"? I still don't have a solid answer.

 

[hog88]

Hmm.

Okay, I get it.

But let's draw two extreme cases.

One is the person who always--I mean always--acts in his own self-interest. Him and his family, they are all that matters in his decision matrix.

The other is the person who always--100%--acts selflessly, without regard for his own well-being.

Would you want your local fire fighters to be more the first type, or more the second? How about the police who roll out to your kids' school if there's an active shooter reported? Would you be okay with your barber quitting halfway through your haircut because it would be better for him to leave work for home? Can your surgeon leave the OR because his daughter's birthday party starts in 30 minutes?

Now flip to the opposite extreme. How about the Air Force combat controller who, already at risk of bleeding out, jumps up and empties clip after clip into the enemy bunker to hold their attention while a helicopter full of his buddies is making a risky landing nearby? How about the Marine who is on sentry duty in his operating base, hears a radio call for help from his platoon out on patrol in a nearby village, and without any regard for his own safety or future earnings, jumps into a HMMWV with a buddy to go rescue them, making trip after trip into the ambush zone to pull out wounded buddies?

I think we'll both agree the extreme cases on the selfish side are ridiculous. Meanwhile, the extreme cases on the selfless side are heroic.*

I'm not saying our lads are analogous to either of these extreme cases. I'm not saying football players are soldiers, or fire fighters. It's just a game. But I'm not saying they're barbers or office workers, either. In truth, if you were to say they're more like A or B, you'd have to put them closer to the life savers and combatants. That's just who they are, the mind set they normally display.

And if they are closer to a warrior caste than the opposite, then their sense of self-respect and self-worth is going to be tied up in some of the same values (selflessness, duty, courage) that drive soldiers.

~ ~ ~

Friend, you're performing a risk assessment in your head, on behalf of unnamed Vols players, as if they were you, in your current circumstances. But I don't think they are.

In any case, what we debate here is meaningless to the lads. They're each going to make up their own minds, based on what THEY value.

Go Vols!


* Both are references to recent Medal of Honor winnners: Dave Chapman, USAF, and Dakota Meyer, USMC. Worth googling their stories, both are inspiring.

Oh brother come on now, you're going off the deep end just by a mile.

 

[Stephen Gray]

None of this is meaningless to the people (us) who are thinking it through. Meaningless to the players, sure, but they were never going to log on to Vn.com and read our posts anyway, right?

As for your last sentence, we both agree 100%. I've said the very same thing more than once already in this thread.

I see it the same way, I think. I respect it but do dislike it. No idea if it is typical for players to do so, but I think if sitting out is going to be a possibility for a player if they have a strong season, they should discuss it as early as possible with their coaches and teammates. Just seems like a standup thing to do. Hope that already happens.

 

[sjt18]

Again, risk in inherent in the game. Choosing risk over safety when it doesn't mean anything or enhance one's position in future employment in the risky profession is not a smart move.

Let's take that logic and apply it to other things in life. Having children is a cost and may even kill the woman in child birth. But many of us look at those risks and choose to have children.

Most businesses are started by people who take significant personal risks. They invest a lot of money with no guarantee of return. They risk even being broke and destitute. Many leave good jobs. They risk their family. They sacrifice time. The chance of failure is significantly greater than Hyatt's risk of a career ending injury in any particular college game. Yet... people do it.

People go hiking. There are inherent risks in hiking and seldom any direct financial benefit.

I know a guy who left a very good job as a General Manager to serve in a full time evangelistic ministry. He has savings and support but the risks to him and his family are still significant.

There are A LOT of things people do and assess as valuable that do not boil down to dollars and cents. I strongly suspect there are many things like that in your own life.

So it really isn't your call or mine as to whether it is a "smart" move for a player to play or sit out. It comes down to what they place value on and the risks they're willing to assume for what they value.

I fully support people making unintelligent decisions but I would absolutely opt out and advise anyone who asked my opinion the same.

But you aren't in a position to say it is "unintelligent" since you nor I are in a position to tell Hyatt what non-monetary things are worth to him.

Interesting though. Did you play HS sports and particularly football? If you did... did you receive any direct payment? Did every game you played in carry some risk that you could suffer a life changing injury? But somehow every play was worth it, right? We both could have been crippled for life and dependent on a subsistence payment to survive because of a sports injury... and we still played without pay.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

That's a question I have asked myself when players started sitting out bowl games, "how would I advise my son"? I still don't have a solid answer.

My very first season playing pop warner, I must've been 9 or 10 or 11, my brother and I wanted to quit halfway through the season. My mom--not even my dad, my mom--sat us down and told us no way, no how. We committed to the team at the start, and we were going to see the season through. We didn't have to play again the following year (we did, actually, and continued playing for many years beyond that), but by God we were going to finish the season.

That was my first real introduction to the values of Duty and Commitment. Loyalty, too. All three were wrapped up in that one butt-chewing.

Maybe that's why I became a soldier. Those three values are all huge for the military.

In any case, Freudian analysis aside, I would advise my daughters--and have, several times over the years--in exactly the same way as my mom advised me. Not about football, in my daughters' cases, but the values and concepts are all the same.

Go Vols!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Oh brother come on now, you're going off the deep end just by a mile.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that they were going to be "extreme cases"? Hitting the extremes can help one think through an issue.

 

[BigALWiLson]

Kenny Pickett skipped their NY6 game last year. Most expect Bryce Young and Will Anderson to sit if they don't make the playoff. Players skipping NY6 games is nothing new.

While it has happened I choose to believe our young men will see it through... Tillman will not

 

[hog88]

My very first season playing pop warner, I must've been 9 or 10 or 11, my brother and I wanted to quit halfway through the season. My mom--not even my dad, my mom--sat us down and told us no way, no how. We committed to the team at the start, and we were going to see the season through. We didn't have to play again the following year (we did, actually, and continued playing for many years beyond that), but by God we were going to finish the season.

That was my first real introduction to the values of Duty and Commitment. Loyalty, too. All three were wrapped up in that one butt-chewing.

Maybe that's why I became a soldier. Those three values are all huge for the military.

In any case, Freudian analysis aside, I would advise my daughters--and have, several times over the years--in exactly the same way as my mom advised me. Not about football, in my daughters' cases, but the values and concepts are all the same.

Go Vols!

It's who you feel that you owe your duty, loyalty and commitment to that should drive your decisions.

I scoff at people who talk about soldiers bravely going into battle because of some sense of duty or loyalty to the flag and apple pie. For some that may be the case and I tried to stay away from those guys, I did what I had to do because of my buddies. They are the ones I was loyal to and had a duty to.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It's who you feel that you owe your duty, loyalty and commitment to that should drive your decisions.

I scoff at people who talk about soldiers bravely going into battle because of some sense of duty or loyalty to the flag and apple pie. For some that may be the case and I tried to stay away from those guys, I did what I had to do because of my buddies. They are the ones I was loyal to and had a duty to.

Yep. For most folks, it's the fellas around you who drive you. Not the flag, nor the general, not even the first sergeant. But the guys you respect in your squad and platoon.

If you want to get even deeper, it's usually about not disappointing yourself. You love your teammates, and would hate yourself if you didn't share their hardship, come to their aid. That unwillingness to be the worse version of you, that's often deep down the core motivator.

I think football players are probably driven in much the same way.

 

[Stephen Gray]

It's who you feel that you owe your duty, loyalty and commitment to that should drive your decisions.

I scoff at people who talk about soldiers bravely going into battle because of some sense of duty or loyalty to the flag and apple pie. For some that may be the case and I tried to stay away from those guys, I did what I had to do because of my buddies. They are the ones I was loyal to and had a duty to.

My very first season playing pop warner, I must've been 9 or 10 or 11, my brother and I wanted to quit halfway through the season. My mom--not even my dad, my mom--sat us down and told us no way, no how. We committed to the team at the start, and we were going to see the season through. We didn't have to play again the following year (we did, actually, and continued playing for many years beyond that), but by God we were going to finish the season.

That was my first real introduction to the values of Duty and Commitment. Loyalty, too. All three were wrapped up in that one butt-chewing.

Maybe that's why I became a soldier. Those three values are all huge for the military.

In any case, Freudian analysis aside, I would advise my daughters--and have, several times over the years--in exactly the same way as my mom advised me. Not about football, in my daughters' cases, but the values and concepts are all the same.

Go Vols!

Thank you both for your service.

 

[DougVol]

Glad I wasn't the first to post this, but it is stone cold reality. The season is over, and anything but the CFP is an exhibition at this point, important to the fan base but otherwise not the huge deal some are describing. The kid busted his ass and helped the Vols to their first 10-win season in ages, and in the process worked himself into a 1st round grade, which means serious guaranteed money.

Any fan who harbors ill feelings towards a kid who gave his all in a great season and played a big part in putting UT back on the map because he feels it's time to think about his future is incredibly short sighted. The kind of money involved now is far too great to roll the dice. Go ahead and flame away.

Stop being so vague. Get to the point.

 

[hog88]

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that they were going to be "extreme cases"? Hitting the extremes can help one think through an issue.

I must have missed that.

OT - I did read Alone at Dawn. Great book and would be a great discussion.

 

[hog88]

Thank you both for your service.

I got paid.

 

[hog88]

Yep. For most folks, it's the fellas around you who drive you. Not the flag, nor the general, not even the first sergeant. But the guys you respect in your squad and platoon.

If you want to get even deeper, it's usually about not disappointing yourself. You love your teammates, and would hate yourself if you didn't share their hardship, come to their aid. That unwillingness to be the worse version of you, that's often deep down the core motivator.

I think football players are probably driven in much the same way.

I think that trait is diminishing with the younger generations and for high level athletes diminishes even more the closer they get to that big payday.