Going on record here as being all-in, ride-or-die for this team

[glv98]

Would be nice to take advantage of Key, but...Tennessee has never been known for a half-court offense. If they're not running, they're alread 50% less effective.

Why, bloody why, is this? The LVs seem institutionally unable to install an effective half court offense based on movement and crisp passing. I watched Indiana and wanted to cry. Why is this beyond us, was beyond the greatest coach in wbb history? I know how it started - over dependence on rebounds, put backs and points off turnovers, with a big helping of greatest one on one player available. Who needed sets? But the modern game requires modern offense. Why can't we adapt? I just want to see one or two really sharp, crisp offensive games before I die. Too much to ask?

 

[Amb3096]

Why, bloody why, is this? The LVs seem institutionally unable to install an effective half court offense based on movement and crisp passing. I watched Indiana and wanted to cry. Why is this beyond us, was beyond the greatest coach in wbb history? I know how it started - over dependence on rebounds, put backs and points off turnovers, with a big helping of greatest one on one player available. Who needed sets? But the modern game requires modern offense. Why can't we adapt? I just want to see one or two really sharp, crisp offensive games before I die. Too much to ask?

Because they have a tendency to recruit athlete first, basketball player second. When was the last time they recruited a player that had the total package (like Bueckers, Boston, Clark, Haley Jones, etc) where the first compliment wasn’t “super athletic”? Even Horston was lauded more for her athleticism than anything else. They dominated by having the biggest, strongest and most athletic players. Whether they were actually “good basketball players” was secondary. You can’t get away with that anymore. For starters, they can get with the times and recognize the 3-pointer for the weapon that is…

 

[glv98]

Because they have a tendency to recruit athlete first, basketball player second.

Still? This was identified as a problem long ago. Our other type player is those who do have a modicum of basketball skill, such as shooting, but aren't "athletic" enough. Why can't we find a middle ground like other teams who run an actual offense?

For starters, they can get with the times and recognize the 3-pointer for the weapon that is…

. . . and set some dang screens right?

 

[volnationnj]

Still? This was identified as a problem long ago. Our other type player is those who do have a modicum of basketball skill, such as shooting, but aren't "athletic" enough. Why can't we find a middle ground like other teams who run an actual offense?

. . . and set some dang screens right?

Two headed problem.
First, there aren't many players available that fit into the two-way category each year. Looking at the top 100 in the class of 2023, there are maybe 3 or 4 that I would consider to be in the top 10% both athletically and skill wise (i.e. shooting). And all of them have their choice of where to play college basketball.
Second is our offensive system. Traditionally, we haven't had that pass, pass, pass, screen, back screen, then back door or shoot from outside type of offense. The 3 ball also has not been emphasized. Certainly not in the last dozen years or so (Though there is a player, with unusual range, presently sitting on the far reaches of the bench, that fits the 3 ball category). You really need a big that can pass and hit from around the free throw line for that type of offense to be most effective. It opens up the middle for everyone else.
Whether not having that type of offense is by predetemined design or by necessity because of the type of players on the team, I'm not sure. But changing that would require drafting specific types of players, the type that are in short supply. And also having an offensive system in place to take advantage of those skills. Which I'm not sure is readily available at the moment.

 

[glv98]

I totally realize that complete players are hard to find. But that doesn't preclude having a crisp offense. Indiana is full of not highly rated players, not sure how "complete" they are, but dang can they pass, pass, screen, back screen, etc. And then put the ball in the hole. We've seen tons of those teams, lost to most, the last few years. Not sure why an "athletic" player can't learn an offensive system.

college basketball.
Second is our offensive system. Traditionally, we haven't had that pass, pass, pass, screen, back screen, then back door or shoot from outside type of offense. The 3 ball also has not been emphasized

This is the heart of the problem, and why my heart has been torn out by the LVs for a decade. Lack of a half court game has LONG been identified as the major problem. IMO it also hurts recruiting. We just look a mess and its no fun to watch or play. Cannot possibly be beyond this program to just install a damn modern system and either find players that can do it, or retrain the "athletes" we have. If Indiana, etc can do it, there is no reason whatsoever we can't at least try.

There seems to be a stubborn refusal to update the system. I can't imagine why except for blind adherence to the past, which is a problem that often hurts the LV program. It's crazy and it has to stop for us to be successful.

 

[GameTime]

Two headed problem.
First, there aren't many players available that fit into the two-way category each year. Looking at the top 100 in the class of 2023, there are maybe 3 or 4 that I would consider to be in the top 10% both athletically and skill wise (i.e. shooting). And all of them have their choice of where to play college basketball.
Second is our offensive system. Traditionally, we haven't had that pass, pass, pass, screen, back screen, then back door or shoot from outside type of offense. The 3 ball also has not been emphasized. Certainly not in the last dozen years or so (Though there is a player, with unusual range, presently sitting on the far reaches of the bench, that fits the 3 ball category). You really need a big that can pass and hit from around the free throw line for that type of offense to be most effective. It opens up the middle for everyone else.
Whether not having that type of offense is by predetemined design or by necessity because of the type of players on the team, I'm not sure. But changing that would require drafting specific types of players, the type that are in short supply. And also having an offensive system in place to take advantage of those skills. Which I'm not sure is readily available at the moment.

As you well know friend, Justine is the girl that can fulfil that need, but because of various concerns by the coaching staff, she is one of the designated watchers so far this season....It's driving me nuts to watch her just sit there.

When Justine hits a few deep 3's, the defense will have to come out to her, which will open up Key and the other post players for easy lay ups....This is not rocket science, but logical application to resolve an offensive scoring difficulty...

 

[glv98]

When Justine hits a few deep 3's, the defense will have to come out to her, which will open up Key and the other post players for easy lay ups....This is not rocket science, but logical application to resolve an offensive scoring difficulty...

To be fair, Tess is actually hitting deep 3s at a good clip. I believe both Justine and Sara could also do that given the same amount of playing time.

The question is which of the 3 can do the other things best, and I still believe in the long run that will be Sara with Justine coming on to close the gap. But apparently what Coach sees in practice leads her to Tess.

Also, "easy lay ups"? You kidding? What team and post players you been watching?

 

[volnationnj]

As you well know friend, Justine is the girl that can fulfil that need, but because of various concerns by the coaching staff, she is one of the designated watchers so far this season....It's driving me nuts to watch her just sit there.

When Justine hits a few deep 3's, the defense will have to come out to her, which will open up Key and the other post players for easy lay ups....This is not rocket science, but logical application to resolve an offensive scoring difficulty...

It's a mystery to me also GT.
As I said with Striplin, I can only assume that Coach KJH is not impressed enough, in practice, with either of them to put them in a competitive game.

 

[GameTime]

To be fair, Tess is actually hitting deep 3s at a good clip. I believe both Justine and Sara could also do that given the same amount of playing time.

The question is which of the 3 can do the other things best, and I still believe in the long run that will be Sara with Justine coming on to close the gap. But apparently what Coach sees in practice leads her to Tess.

Also, "easy lay ups"? You kidding? What team and post players you been watching?

So true, we make an easy lay up a challenge of a Herculean effort.....

Yes, Sara and Tess are great outside shooters too, but I personally favor the unlimited possibilities Justine possess, but that's just me.

In any event, we know that our offensive game has to open up, and nothing will open it up more than bombing the hell out of the opponent with a series of deep 3 balls that rip the net as they explode through the netting...

 

[GameTime]

Guys, here's a novel idea, put Sara, Justine, and Tess in the game together...Keep Key as a rim protector, and Powell as the guard...It would be wild.

Play zone defense too....What the hell, we're losing the old fashioned way.

 

[Amb3096]

To be fair, Tess is actually hitting deep 3s at a good clip. I believe both Justine and Sara could also do that given the same amount of playing time.

The question is which of the 3 can do the other things best, and I still believe in the long run that will be Sara with Justine coming on to close the gap. But apparently what Coach sees in practice leads her to Tess.

This is what drives me crazy about some of the recruits. Puckett, Suarez, and Striplin are all essentially interchangeable. You get nothing different by putting one in over the other, unless someone is having a bad day. There's no change up to throw off the opponents. I fear that Justine may have more in common with them than she doesn't. Then you add Tess who has some of the same limations as well as strengths, and there's not a lot of options to work with even though there are a lot of bodies on the bench.

 

[Amb3096]

Guys, here's a novel idea, put Sara, Justine, and Tess in the game together...Keep Key as a rim protector, and Powell as the guard...It would be wild.

Play zone defense too....What the hell, we're losing the old fashioned way.

It's not a bad idea, but it requires an offensive set beyond 4 players standing along the perimeter and passing the ball around. Unless Powell is driving and kicking out (and she doesn't do that), none of the other players will ever be open enough to get a shot off.

 

[GameTime]

This is what drives me crazy about some of the recruits. Puckett, Suarez, and Striplin are all essentially interchangeable. You get nothing different by putting one in over the other, unless someone is having a bad day. There's no change up to throw off the opponents. I fear that Justine may have more in common with them than she doesn't. Then you add Tess who has some of the same limations as well as strengths, and there's not a lot of options to work with even though there are a lot of bodies on the bench.

Amb, this is not a league where you can make mid season changes for other players, you play with what you got, and you improvise with the talent at hand...

Foot speed is not their strong point, but long range 3 point shooting is...Take advantage of their natural abilities, the long ball, and improvise with different zone defenses to overcome,or at least neutralize, their lack of foot speed...

When I attended a Holly practice years ago, and heard her chastise a player for shooting a 3 ball (and making it) before going inside first, I leaned over and told my now deceased bride, this team is officially screwed, and it was.

IU was waiting for our girls to try and force the ball inside to Key, or to try and drive the lane...They knew our last option was probably going to be the long ball, and most of the time they were right.

On offense their first option was the mid range jumper, or the long ball...They went inside, in several cases, when they had drawn us out to protect the outside shot they were killing us with...The exact opposite of what we were doing.

 

[Amb3096]

Amb, this is not a league where you can make mid season changes for other players, you play with what you got, and you improvise with the talent at hand...

Foot speed is not their strong point, but long range 3 point shooting is...Take advantage of their natural abilities, the long ball, and improvise with different zone defenses to overcome,or at least neutralize, their lack of foot speed...

When I attended a Holly practice years ago, and heard her chastise a player for shooting a 3 ball (and making it) before going inside first, I leaned over and told my now deceased bride, this team is officially screwed, and it was.

IU was waiting for our girls to try and force the ball inside to Key, or to try and drive the lane...They knew our last option was probably going to be the long ball, and most of the time they were right.

On offense their first option was the mid range jumper, or the long ball...They went inside, in several cases, when they had drawn us out to protect the outside shot they were killing us with...The exact opposite of what we were doing.

I don't completely disagree with you, but I don't like the idea of having too many tall, slow players on the court at the same time. It really limits what they can do on offense and defense, and going to a zone with that set of players takes away one of Tennessee's historical strengths: rebounding. They would also have to completely overhaul the offense in order to take advantage of the skillset on the court, and I'm not convinced that Kellie can do that. She's not like Geno or Vic or Kim who can completely change their offense/defense year to year depending on the strengths of their key players. Like you pointed out with the IU game, Tennessee has gotten very predictable on offense. Jacy Sheldon was just biding her time during the OSU game for when she could pick someone's pocket because she probably knew before the Tennessee players did where the ball was going to go.

Kellie needs two game plans: one for when Rickea and Horston are on the floor and another when she has shooters. Right now, she's just trotting out the same, stale offense without consideration of who she's got on the court, and it's not paying off.

 

[GameTime]

It's not a bad idea, but it requires an offensive set beyond 4 players standing along the perimeter and passing the ball around. Unless Powell is driving and kicking out (and she doesn't do that), none of the other players will ever be open enough to get a shot off.

Amb, the players set hard screens for each other, and often the screener would be open for a give and go shot, or an open look...

You guys are tired as hell of a stagnate half court offense, you said so....The same old get the ball inside routine is killing us...My way would at least be fun to play and fun to watch, sort of like coach Heupel, be bold or why play at all....

The LVs are loaded with talent that can shoot the deep ball, but we are still playing Holly ball, but with a different head coach.

 

[GameTime]

The other night guys, I was channel surfing and came across the UConn game...They were moving the ball around with quick passes, and hard screens to free up the shooter.....It was beautiful (I hated it)..

They were never consumed with the get the ball inside mantra that has haunted the LVs for too many years...Instead, they were popping jumpers and deep 3 balls..When Texas came out to stop them, they went right by them for a lay up, or kicked it out for a deep 3 ball....It was masterful (I hated it)

 

[Jeff Clark]

The other night guys, I was channel surfing and came across the UConn game...They were moving the ball around with quick passes, and hard screens to free up the shooter.....It was beautiful (I hated it)..

They were never consumed with the get the ball inside mantra that has haunted the LVs for too many years...Instead, they were popping jumpers and deep 3 balls..When Texas came out to stop them, they went right by them for a lay up, or kicked it out for a deep 3 ball....It was masterful (I hated it)

The other night guys, I was channel surfing and came across the UConn game...They were moving the ball around with quick passes, and hard screens to free up the shooter.....It was beautiful (I hated it)..

They were never consumed with the get the ball inside mantra that has haunted the LVs for too many years...Instead, they were popping jumpers and deep 3 balls..When Texas came out to stop them, they went right by them for a lay up, or kicked it out for a deep 3 ball....It was masterful (I hated it)

This is like Tennessee football taking years to get rid of the single wing offense in my opinion.

 

[GameTime]

Jeff, if the LVs are to ever become relevant again, we know what doesn't work...The ol' get the ball inside first routine has killed this program...And it's boring as the devil to watch too....

We got the offensive shooters just sitting on the bench watching, why? We are loaded with 3 point gunners, but we rather play ground attack...

If Kellie would look her gunners in their eyes and tell them I need you guys to score and score big, these girls would find a way to do it...They love her that much...

 

[Jax_Vol]

An abundance of depth..

Miles
Puckett
Jackson
Walker
Wynn
Striplen
Pissott
Franklin
Powell
Key
T. Darby
Horston
Suarez
Hollingshead

 

[Jeff Clark]

An abundance of depth..

Miles
Puckett
Jackson
Walker
Wynn
Striplen
Pissott
Franklin
Powell
Key
T. Darby
Horston
Suarez
Hollingshead

But not an abundance of coaching ability by this coaching staff.

 

[Jax_Vol]

But not an abundance of coaching ability by this coaching staff.

They certainly have an opportunity here to develop a plan. There are so many bodies, I'm unsure where to even start.

As starters, we need?

Horston
Jackson
Hollingshead or Key
Walker
a 3-point shooter

 

[Amb3096]

They certainly have an opportunity here to develop a plan. There are so many bodies, I'm unsure where to even start.

As starters, we need?

Horston
Jackson
Hollingshead or Key
Walker
a 3-point shooter

NOT Walker. Need Powell there and one of Darby/Puckett/Pissott…whomever is most reliable

 

[NoBackBoard]

Guys, here's a novel idea, put Sara, Justine, and Tess in the game together...Keep Key as a rim protector, and Powell as the guard...It would be wild.

Play zone defense too....What the hell, we're losing the old fashioned way.

It may, key word may, work offensively but defensively Justine, Darby and Puckett are not strong defenders and we would likely be out scored.

 

[GameTime]

Guys, put Justine, with Puckett or Sara, I guarantee you we would rain 3's on any opponent....The idea is to be bold, not the same old LVs boring offense...

We need at least 2 big guns on the floor at all times, remember my pals, attack from the air, not from the ground...Bomb the hell out of em...

When I was a collection specialist, I always used both hands to get the degenerate to pay his debt when he was unwilling to cooperate....Ah, the good ol' days.

On defense run a 1/3/1 zone defense, which is great for tall players...We would kill em...If not, it would be fun to watch and play.

 

[Jax_Vol]

NOT Walker. Need Powell there and one of Darby/Puckett/Pissott…whomever is most reliable

Yes. I was about to make a similar change.

Powell = tough
Horston = tough
Jackson = tough
Hollingshead = tough
Pissott...(if she is ready) - probably not tough

remove Miles or Walker from mix
Bring Key in for Hollingshead
Use Frankin more = tough
Puckett or Darby depending upon which is shooting well = tough

Striklen, Wynn, Suarez