War in Ukraine

#34,354
#34,354
Hunerwadel said:
We're the bad guys while Russia rapes a sovereign nation and kills tens of thousands of innocent people.
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A) Russia isnt doing that.
B) Yes, we are the bad guys who not only turned a blind eye to atrocities in Donbas for years, but continued funding and supporting the Ukrainian regime in charge of it. When you look at our foreign policy for the last few decades, Vietnam forward, we are the World's bully. We are the bad guys.
 
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#34,356
#34,356
volgr said:
A) Russia isnt doing that.
B) Yes, we are the bad guys who not only turned a blind eye to atrocities in Donbas for years, but continued funding and supporting the Ukrainian regime in charge of it. When you look at our foreign policy for the last few decades, Vietnam forward, we are the World's bully. We are the bad guys.
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Of course they aren't Comrade...

Ukraine conflict: 'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'
Ukraine war: Boy, 11, raped in front of his mother and now only communicates using black lines, says deputy foreign minister
Men and boys among alleged rape victims of Russian soldiers in Ukraine
Opinion | The rape of Ukraine
Ukraine has accused Russian soldiers of using rape as a tool of war. These two women say justice is hard to come by - CNN
Russian soldiers accused of raping women, men and children in Ukraine
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/04/26/ukraine-war-rape-sexual-assault/
Russian Soldier And Wife Discussing Rape Of Ukrainian Women Identified By RFE/RL
Rape has reportedly become a weapon in Ukraine. Finding justice may be difficult
https://nypost.com/2022/05/04/ukrainian-men-and-boys-allegedly-raped-by-russian-soldiers-un-probe/
https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/21/baby...ed-by-russian-soldiers-ukraine-says-16684932/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-boys-women-says-war-crimes-investigator.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/race-emergency-contraception-raped-ukrainian-women-2022-5
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...an-defenders-hold-out-donbas-city-2022-05-30/
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-russians-looted-murdered-and-raped-9jznllf02
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18495615/parents-ukrainian-woman-raped-murdered-russian-soldiers/
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-official-russians-raped-11-year-old-boy-1696549
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-rape-allegations-russian-occupied-areas/
https://people.com/politics/wife-russian-soldier-reportedly-gives-permission-rape-women-ukraine-war/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-soliders-rape/

never_go_full_retard1.jpg
 
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#34,360
#34,360
Rasputin_Vol said:
WOW... just WOW. So Trump is to blame for the Afghanistan debacle and for Russia taking over Donbas/Eastern Ukraine?

The Donald and the Kremlin Don: how Trump’s toxic legacy helps Putin | Simon Tisdall
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I get that you and probably most people here are disenchanted by a lot of US military involvement around the world. I have been, too - and spent time trying to figure out exactly why I see Ukraine as different. It's really pretty simple in the end. Ukraine is actually fighting for their freedom, and doing a pretty good job of it even before outside help began making the odds a lot better. Perhaps Ukraine is somewhat corrupt - find a place that isn't.

The thing that has turned most of our opinion against aiding others has a lot to do with who those others were and what little was achieved in the end. Fighting in the ME in Islamic cultures is just plain damn stupid - put your hand in a bucket of water and pull it out kind of stupid because you changed nothing - nothing at all. Same with broad swaths of Africa and S America where corruption is a way of life. The only evidence you see of people there trying to change anything seems to be mired in socialism. People who have nothing always fall for that load of BS because it seems like a quick way to something for people who have nothing ... until they find they just wind up with more of nothing.

In the end you can't change what countries are. They are either capable of self determination and democratic beliefs or they are mired in theocracy, tribalism, or corruption as an accepted way of life - things no outsider can fix. It's going to be a challenge for old soviet states to completely shake off their own kinds of corruption, but there are a number of them in eastern Europe who are working hard; we need to support them. There are all kinds of sayings about doing a little work on the front end to save massive effort when you turned away from the smaller problem. WW2 is a classic example. Spend a little to help freedom or spend a lot to get it back.
 
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#34,361
#34,361
NorthDallas40 said:
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!
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Yep. Too many people in power all around the globe are so enamored with their own "leadership" potential that they never ask the right question when they have a bright idea. Just one very simple question "Why won't it work?" Apparently leaders are often simply to blind to their own narcissism to consider a thought erupting from their brain could be flawed - sometimes fatally flawed.
 
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#34,369
#34,369
DonjoVol said:
They impeached Trump because he wanted to end the money laundering scam in Ukraine.

Prove me wrong.
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Which president's kid was involved in Ukrainian business scams? What president was apparently the "big guy" getting kickbacks from his kid's involvements ... based on the father's lifetime of political incompetence and corruption in DC? Business make the world go around. Political and other graft make the business world go around. Imagine a world where politics doesn't directly influence business - where regulatory and other obstacles aren't moved, bent, or greased by payoffs of one kind or another to politicians.
 
#34,371
#34,371
AM64 said:
I get that you and probably most people here are disenchanted by a lot of US military involvement around the world. I have been, too - and spent time trying to figure out exactly why I see Ukraine as different. It's really pretty simple in the end. Ukraine is actually fighting for their freedom, and doing a pretty good job of it even before outside help began making the odds a lot better. Perhaps Ukraine is somewhat corrupt - find a place that isn't.
Click to expand...
Remember to keep this in mind as 3elensky bargains with Poland and gradually moves into a partition or outright annexation. And then remind me again of their fight for freedom.

Also, the battle in Donbas since 2014 was not about freedom. It was about maintaining their control over a group of people that actually were fighting for their freedom in that region... freedom from the government of Kyiv. Let's not get it confused.

It's interesting that you would support take sides with the Kyiv regime fighting against people that are fighting for independence from Kyiv.

AM64 said:
The thing that has turned most of our opinion against aiding others has a lot to do with who those others were and what little was achieved in the end. Fighting in the ME in Islamic cultures is just plain damn stupid - put your hand in a bucket of water and pull it out kind of stupid because you changed nothing - nothing at all. Same with broad swaths of Africa and S America where corruption is a way of life. The only evidence you see of people there trying to change anything seems to be mired in socialism. People who have nothing always fall for that load of BS because it seems like a quick way to something for people who have nothing ... until they find they just wind up with more of nothing.
Click to expand...
But Europe is the paragon of stability and virtue.

AM64 said:
In the end you can't change what countries are. They are either capable of self determination and democratic beliefs or they are mired in theocracy, tribalism, or corruption as an accepted way of life - things no outsider can fix. It's going to be a challenge for old soviet states to completely shake off their own kinds of corruption, but there are a number of them in eastern Europe who are working hard; we need to support them. There are all kinds of sayings about doing a little work on the front end to save massive effort when you turned away from the smaller problem. WW2 is a classic example. Spend a little to help freedom or spend a lot to get it back.
Click to expand...
No, we need to worry about ourselves over here. I don't know if you have been sleep or not paying attention over the past 2 years, but we have Bolsheviks and fascists right here in America. Until we fix the situation here, we don't need to be concerned with anyone outside of our borders.
 
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#34,372
#34,372
Rasputin_Vol said:
Remember to keep this in mind as 3elensky bargains with Poland and gradually moves into a partition or outright annexation. And then remind me again of their fight for freedom.

Also, the battle in Donbas since 2014 was not about freedom. It was about maintaining their control over a group of people that actually were fighting for their freedom in that region... freedom from the government of Kyiv. Let's not get it confused.

It's interesting that you would support take sides with the Kyiv regime fighting against people that are fighting for independence from Kyiv.


But Europe is the paragon of stability and virtue.

No, we need to worry about ourselves over here. I don't know if you have been sleep or not paying attention over the past 2 years, but we have Bolsheviks and fascists right here in America. Until we fix the situation here, we don't need to be concerned with anyone outside of our borders.
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The Poland thing you project hasn't happened. The borders between Russia and Ukraine were fixed after the USSR disbanded. We both know the problem there, in Crimea, and Sevastopol. Russia needed Black Sea access in two cases and Crimea was the Russian version of Florida or the Riviera - lots of Russians were posted in those places during the USSR's reign - they should have gone home and didn't. Remember Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons as part of a sovereignty agreement - simplified perhaps but basically the fact. I've made the point before that there's a lot of NY and NJ (and more recently Cuban) influence and investment in the S Florida area - doesn't change the fact that it still belongs to FL.
 
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#34,374
#34,374
Rasputin_Vol said:
But Europe is the paragon of stability and virtue.
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Name a place - any place without corruption. It's a matter of degree. I guess you could say that the Islamic world is stable if you like post Stone Age theocracy with a little bit of infighting between mostly peaceful Islamic sects, or that Africa is mostly stable if tribal differences and warring warlords are acceptable practice, or that S America and C America are mostly stable if you agree with a different theocratic thought process that overlooks endemic corruption - or maybe just has some of it's own.

Rasputin_Vol said:
No, we need to worry about ourselves over here. I don't know if you have been sleep or not paying attention over the past 2 years, but we have Bolsheviks and fascists right here in America. Until we fix the situation here, we don't need to be concerned with anyone outside of our borders.
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That makes me think a bit of a snarky passage in an old folk song "The Roving Kind".

My father is in politics, a good and righteous man
My mother is an acrobat, I do the best I can
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Could be that the best we can do is balance our issues and help out elsewhere the best we can. If you think we're going to resolve all our issues and go to be at night in peace, harmony, and with the same dreams, you are living in some Utopian paradise - it ain't happening. I think there's another phrase somewhere that says democracy (even if we are a modified version) is messy.
 
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