NCAA trying to come down on NIL and collectives

[S.C. OrangeMan]

I think what would occur here, if it followed a similar model to the regulations I am talking about, would be that the NCAA could adopt some rules by-laws prohibiting blatant pay for play and requiring that any compensation for NIL to be fair market value, that's what they do with doctors except with doctors it's prohibiting "pay for referrals" instead of pay for play.

The NCAA could set up some rules along this line that would probably pass legal muster, like I said there is considerable precedent, and say these are our rules, and if you don't follow them, you're ineligible, it doesn't mean you can't make money, but if you don't want to be restricted to fair market value and abide by these rules regarding improper incentives, then you can go play somewhere else. Who knows, a real minor league could pop up? The conferences could do the same thing also.

Again, either way, there needs to be amnesty for anything done to this point, because the NCAA has just completely whiffed on this to date and failed in its duty to provide any sort of order, and NIL deals which they view as "improper" under any new rules, should be grandfathered in if they were entered into up to this point.

The market, not the NCAA, decides what fair market value actually is.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Need salary caps imo at each position and incentives with stats awards and championships

Not gonna happen, because NIL isn't a salary.

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

The NCAA and universities have had their way for decades, but the NCAA and universities can't overrule Supreme Court decisions and state laws.

The days of college athletes not being able to be paid are over. Now it's just in what form whether it's NIL, as employees, or if startup football leagues like XFL/USFL takeover development. There are far too many future lawsuits and unknowns to be able to say for sure at this point.

Basically no one is talking about "athletes not being able to be paid" anymore, that's a straw man at this point. Just because they should be paid does not mean there should be no rules. The NFL isn't half this chaotic.

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

The market, not the NCAA, decides what fair market value actually is.

Market for what is the question though? The question is what are they actually being paid for? Not their name, image and likeness in most cases. That's a sham for paying them to go to a certain school. That's what the NCAA is attempting to crack down on, not legit NIL. Take all the little hooks out of these contracts that keep a kid from going to any other school out and see what happens to the "value" of these deals, they will plummet in 99% of cases. As many have asked me, do you think Spyre would be paying Nico 8 million to go just anywhere? Hell naw. Spyre's stated purpose is to provide NIL opportunities for University of Tennessee athletes. I just think it's BS to make this retroactive because the NCAA did a piss poor job of providing guidance. Otherwise, there need to be more rules related to NIL.

 

[Firebirdparts]

I think if we've learned anything from making it through first grade at age 7, it's the that jibber-jabber will not stop the relentless forward march of rule-making. I will say that this won't be easy to audit. It's going to take somebody with a strong stomach. So I suspect they will be having some brainstorming sessions to come up with some compensating action instead.

Glad it's not my money. Holy cow.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

The NCAA and universities have had their way for decades, but the NCAA and universities can't overrule Supreme Court decisions and state laws.

The days of college athletes not being able to be paid are over. Now it's just in what form whether it's NIL, as employees, or if startup football leagues like XFL/USFL takeover development. There are far too many future lawsuits and unknowns to be able to say for sure at this point.

It didn't have to go to the Supreme Court to begin with. The NCAA initiated that because they didn't want to take the responsibility to develop and enforce any guidelines themselves. They wanted the federal government to step in and do it for them but it backfired on them when the courts told them to kick rocks! What's going on right now is a direct result of the lack of leadership from the NCAA. Now that the toothpaste is already out of the tube, they are scrambling to gain some sort of control over this. This should've been handled 5 years ago. There is absolutely no vision from any of the leadership in that organization.

 

[TheDeeble]

Basically no one is talking about "athletes not being able to be paid" anymore, that's a straw man at this point. Just because they should be paid does not mean there should be no rules. The NFL isn't half this chaotic.

True, but the NFL is much smaller and is a single entity vs hundreds of universities, different conferences rules, different state laws, and thousands of players that aren't even employees with contracts.

The NCAA's unwillingness to change is what brought on the current state. Although I'm sure there will be some sort of generally accepted rules in whatever form of football results from this. As I suggested before, there are still more future lawsuits and unknowns to be able to say for sure what college football will look like 5 years from now.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

I think we can all agree that no matter what the NCAA tries to impose regarding NIL, programs are going to continue to find ways to circumvent it. So either way we are back to square one.

 

[TheVolsFrog]

Basically no one is talking about "athletes not being able to be paid" anymore, that's a straw man at this point. Just because they should be paid does not mean there should be no rules. The NFL isn't half this chaotic.

That's largely because players are employees, there's a base pay structure, a player union, salary caps along with collective bargaining and players are still able to make $ through NIL outside of whatever they make from their contract.
Colleges don't want players seen as employees so here we are.

 

[TheDeeble]

It didn't have to go to the Supreme Court to begin with. The NCAA initiated that because they didn't want to take the responsibility to develop and enforce any guidelines themselves. They wanted the federal government to step in and do it for them but it backfired on them when the courts told them to kick rocks! What's going on right now is a direct result of the lack of leadership from the NCAA. Now that the toothpaste is already out of the tube, they are scrambling to gain some sort of control over this. This should've been handled 5 years ago. There is absolutely no vision from any of the leadership in that organization.

There was too much money being made and the players weren't seeing any of it. I think that's what started this really. Not only were college athletes not getting a part of the money, but they weren't even allowed to get royalties from people using their NIL to make money.

I'm sure you're familiar with it but look up Ed O'Bannon's lawsuit against the NCAA. There's where it really started.

 

[TheVolsFrog]

It didn't have to go to the Supreme Court to begin with. The NCAA initiated that because they didn't want to take the responsibility to develop and enforce any guidelines themselves. They wanted the federal government to step in and do it for them but it backfired on them when the courts told them to kick rocks! What's going on right now is a direct result of the lack of leadership from the NCAA. Now that the toothpaste is already out of the tube, they are scrambling to gain some sort of control over this. This should've been handled 5 years ago. There is absolutely no vision from any of the leadership in that organization.

Yeah they thought they were playing with a better hand and lost.
I really don't see how they couldn't see the shift coming when you're that close to the action.
I also think trying to retroactive something that you basically said we're hands off NIL, schools and states it's up to you isn't going to go the way they think it is

 

[Sudden Impact]

I think we can all agree that no matter what the NCAA tries to impose regarding NIL, programs are going to continue to find ways to circumvent it. So either way we are back to square one.

Square One being 1000s of investigations never completed and started for over 5 years. For example, Kansas Basketball.
The NCAA Profits used to investigate by outsourcing the investigations.....
The NCAA lacks the ability to Govern.
The NCAA needs to be held accountable for their Lack of Institutional Control.
A new Organization needs to be formed for each Sport in College athletics and the University Presidents need to be removed from the Board.
The NCAA is no Different than a High End Country Club Membership and a membership of those on interested in supporting their own schools and agendas.
Instead it should be composed of those you see all sides of the equation and give rulings and regulations that serves all in their best interest. It has been all NCAA until NIL. The transfer Portal was a great thing but it was like throwing a Bone to a dog.
NIL hit because it was forced on them when California and Florida? Passed the first State laws allowing NILs. I think now we have 30 states with NIL Laws. The Supreme Court ruling was basically stating you have jumped the gun on legal procedures and you need to start at the state level.
NIL will not ruin College Athletics if it is regulated. Rignt now it is the Wild West. The NCAA will not win and if they fight it the NCAA will ruin College Athletics. The Toothpaste will not go back into the tube and the worms will not go back in the Can, but the toothpaste can be contained/used and the Worms can be contained.
A lack of leadership ade Foresight is what got us here and it is now time to reformat the NCAA hard drive and reprogram it.....

 

[butchna]

So what? What are the players going to do? Strike? Like someone said before, there isn't an NFL farm system out there these players can go to. They'd only be hurting themselves. College football would survive. I guarantee you for every player that would try to hold out, complaining that the system is not fair, there would be a ton more guys right behind them that would gladly take their spot. You want a free education? You want a chance to be developed and go to the NFL? Well this is the price you pay. In all honesty, none of this would've been necessary if the universities and the NCAA had had the balls to stand their ground and basically tell players "our way or they highway". They should've called their bluff.

I've said this before but I'm actually completely in favor of NIL in the way it was intended. But this is not it. Using it as a means to buy players to come play for your university is not what NIL was supposed to be.

It’s impossible for the NCAA to “have balls” when the Supreme Court neutered them. This is the end result of HARD BALLING every tidbit of every lil namby pamby possibility of student athlete compensation for over half a century…adjusted for Biden level inflation! I read a biography of Bear Bryant and found it fascinating that a functionally illiterate spawn of Arkansas dirt farming ended up in Tuscaloosa after Bama won a BIDDING WAR for his services! This is circa 1930’s! Flash forward to the 2010’s, and you have this monopolistic monolith riding herd over a high school kid who starts a t-shirt business totally unrelated to his athletic status. Remember Phil Crosby? The NCAA began as a regulatory vehicle enabled by Theodore Roosevelt to eliminate the death toll from dueling Flying Wedges formations and evolved into a faux, self-annointed defender of “amateurism” whilst micro-managing a machine that generates billions of dollars. Any ADJUSTING of their pretentious methods and maybe they head this off…but they didn’t. Why? Because they’re dumbazzes who held on too tight until reality in the form of the highest court cut their hands off! So they’re waving their stumps around as if they still mattered and there are actual heretics who believe they have a say in the matter.

 

[butchna]

Need salary caps imo at each position and incentives with stats awards and championships

Then they need collective bargaining which means they cut the players in on the billions in broadcasting and merchandising. Wouldn’t it be easier (and WAY cheaper) to let collectives do their thing?

 

[TheVolsFrog]

Then they need collective bargaining which means they cut the players in on the billions in broadcasting and merchandising. Wouldn’t it be easier (and WAY cheaper) to let collectives do their thing?

Sort of what I was thinking. Fix the transfer portal, when teams can talk to other teams staff for jobs.
NIL will eventually work itself and every player will basically know what their NIL earning potential is

 

[Orange_Crush]

It's like people all across society have lost the ability to recognize really bad ideas at the outset and now we must try them all first to realize they are stupid.

Yep, you can't have freedom without the freedom to fail. Trying to idiot proof life will be the end of us.

I'm trying to understand your logic.

Are you arguing that the NCAA athletes should have the same constitutional freedoms the rest of us do (to own and profit from their own Name, Image, Likeness, Work), even if there are failures in there? Or were you arguing that NOT infringing on their personal freedoms is an idea too bad attempt?

 

[Orange_Crush]

My take is that, first, the NCAA doesn't agree generally with the concept of giving money to student-athletes who are already getting a free college education (plus housing, food, tutoring, counseling)--all worth more than 200,000; and second, it didn't know how to regulate NIL given that any restrictions/constraints it formulated could be challenged in court. College is not the free-market; it's not the business world. It's a separate realm and this idea that you can just mix business and college--mix academics with student-athletes looking for financial deals--without opening a big can of worms is crazy. There are all sorts of complications. And giving cash to student-athletes for going to class--or earning a certain grade-point average? Comical. A joke. More of the dumbing-down of America. What, you can be expected to act like a halfway responsible young adult and go to class on your own initiative?

That's BS. As soon as $Billions of broadcasting rights start getting dispersed, your unsupported ideal breaks down.

It's business. period. The power brokers just don't want to lose the power or share the money with the workhorses that generate that $$$.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The market, not the NCAA, decides what fair market value actually is.

NCAA has not been a free market.

The NCAA is the equivalent of a National Burger Pricing Association price-fixing burger costs across all burger providers to ensure that no matter where a customer goes, they'll have to pay a minimum of $20 for a burger. If the NBPA existed and tried that, they'd be anti-trusted out of existence. The NCAA just got a shot over the bow from the SCotUS that their burger price fixing is on its last legs.

 

[Orange_Crush]

True, but the NFL is much smaller and is a single entity vs hundreds of universities, different conferences rules, different state laws, and thousands of players that aren't even employees with contracts.

The NCAA's unwillingness to change is what brought on the current state. Although I'm sure there will be some sort of generally accepted rules in whatever form of football results from this. As I suggested before, there are still more future lawsuits and unknowns to be able to say for sure what college football will look like 5 years from now.

Add to this, the NFL is more organized because... wait for this... They pay their players and allow the players a corporate voice at the bargaining table!

Funny, that...

 

[Orange_Crush]

It’s impossible for the NCAA to “have balls” when the Supreme Court neutered them. This is the end result of HARD BALLING every tidbit of every lil namby pamby possibility of student athlete compensation for over half a century…adjusted for Biden level inflation! I read a biography of Bear Bryant and found it fascinating that a functionally illiterate spawn of Arkansas dirt farming ended up in Tuscaloosa after Bama won a BIDDING WAR for his services! This is circa 1930’s! Flash forward to the 2010’s, and you have this monopolistic monolith riding herd over a high school kid who starts a t-shirt business totally unrelated to his athletic status. Remember Phil Crosby? The NCAA began as a regulatory vehicle enabled by Theodore Roosevelt to eliminate the death toll from dueling Flying Wedges formations and evolved into a faux, self-annointed defender of “amateurism” whilst micro-managing a machine that generates billions of dollars. Any ADJUSTING of their pretentious methods and maybe they head this off…but they didn’t. Why? Because they’re dumbazzes who held on too tight until reality in the form of the highest court cut their hands off! So they’re waving their stumps around as if they still mattered and there are actual heretics who believe they have a say in the matter.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Then they need collective bargaining which means they cut the players in on the billions in broadcasting and merchandising. Wouldn’t it be easier (and WAY cheaper) to let collectives do their thing?

This NCAA pushback is in large part University Presidents seeing a decline in AD contributions being diverted to NIL collectives.

 

[TheVolsFrog]

Add to this, the NFL is more organized because... wait for this... They pay their players and allow the players a corporate voice at the bargaining table!

Funny, that...

May eventually see at least at the Power 5 level Basketball and Football becoming club sports, associated with a school but under a different set of rules, different org running it and paying players while also allowing for them to get an education.

It's a new day and things have changed. You're not going to be able to sell the we're giving you a free, education plus housing and living expenses.
Power 5 Players will argue they're paying for it through their blood, sweat and tears.
Lower schools and sports programs, that don't bring in money, yeah students are getting a great deal on free school and housing.

 

[Orange_Crush]

May eventually see at least at the Power 5 level Basketball and Football becoming club sports, associated with a school but under a different set of rules, different org running it and paying players while also allowing for them to get an education.

It's a new day and things have changed. You're not going to be able to sell the we're giving you a free, education plus housing and living expenses.
Power 5 Players will argue they're paying for it through their blood, sweat and tears.
Lower schools and sports programs, that don't bring in money, yeah students are getting a great deal on free school and housing.

Something new will come from this. There's no use wishing for (what curmudgeons consider) the good old days. You can't cheat death by regression or attempts at constant improvement. Only rebirth.

 

[volinSmyrna]

That's largely because players are employees, there's a base pay structure, a player union, salary caps along with collective bargaining and players are still able to make $ through NIL outside of whatever they make from their contract.
Colleges don't want players seen as employees so here we are.

They sure aren't acting like it right now. I don't think they realize what they are doing. Once they try to limit NIL deals in ANY way, it will go back to court and the end result is now all players are on the University payroll. This means they will have to get the same benefits as all employees (healthcare, access to retirement systems, etc). This will cripple most Universities. The big boys could absorb it for a while, but the vast majority will get hammered. They just can't leave well enough alone.

 

[TheDeeble]

They sure aren't acting like it right now. I don't think they realize what they are doing. Once they try to limit NIL deals in ANY way, it will go back to court and the end result is now all players are on the University payroll. This means they will have to get the same benefits as all employees (healthcare, access to retirement systems, etc). This will cripple most Universities. The big boys could absorb it for a while, but the vast majority will get hammered. They just can't leave well enough alone.

If it went that route and colleges stayed involved I think we'd see a separate breakoff league. Some makeup of the Power 5 schools that want to pay players as employees, and everyone else in another league(s) that doesn't really make money.