War in Ukraine

#30,277
#30,277
EasternVol said:
Very close. Psaki's comments, if the article is accurate, are pure idiocy.
Click to expand...
These people are ideologs, academics and lawyers. They have unearned hubris and pride that was actually earned by the people before them in the Cold War that actually understood the importance of diplomacy (at least putting on a face of diplomacy even if it may not have been sincere in most cases). Diplomacy with a nuclear peer is what will save the species. There is no way this would have happened 30 years ago. Leadership at least back then were aware of the dangers of military escalation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EasternVol
#30,278
#30,278
MontyPython said:
We're into this war up to our eyeballs already. What's Putin gonna do... attack us? LOL. This would result in the complete destruction of their armed forces in Ukraine with all of NATO beating the crap out of them.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's getting more dangerous for everyone. Putin already seems pretty unstable. If Russia continues to fail he may try to really escalate things.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MontyPython
#30,281
#30,281
  • Like
Reactions: marcusluvsvols, AM64 and StarRaider
#30,282
#30,282
EasternVol said:
Maybe it's really getting more dangerous for everyone Putin already seems pretty unstable. If Russia continues to fail he may try to really escalate things.
Click to expand...
My fear is that he will do whatever he can to draw NATO in. Force NATO's hand by committing some god awful atrocity. He can save face losing to NATO. He can't if he's retreating bc Ukraine kicked his ass.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marcusluvsvols and tvolsfan
#30,283
#30,283
MontyPython said:
We're into this war up to our eyeballs already. What's Putin gonna do... attack us? LOL. This would result in the complete destruction of their armed forces in Ukraine with all of NATO beating the crap out of them.
Click to expand...
I've learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64, MontyPython, NorthDallas40 and 2 others
#30,284
#30,284
Rasputin_Vol said:
These people are ideologs, academics and lawyers. They have unearned hubris and pride that was actually earned by the people before them in the Cold War that actually understood the importance of diplomacy (at least putting on a face of diplomacy even if it may not have been sincere in most cases). Diplomacy with a nuclear peer is what will save the species. There is no way this would have happened 30 years ago. Leadership at least back then were aware of the dangers of military escalation.
Click to expand...
I agree. Today it's way too much about winning political advantage. It looks like the While House saw the chance to make their boy and party look good, and without thinking about national security (there are no adults there to remind them) they said 'we did that!'. Then someone told them to zip it and now they're in damage control mode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64 and USF grad in TN
#30,285
#30,285
Rasputin_Vol said:
Before that. When The Obama State Department decided to orchestrate a coup in 2014. Had that not happened, we wouldn't be here right now.
Click to expand...
There is that. And if we had not broken our pledge to not extend NATO eastward, and a few other things. But the really huge elephant in the room is who launched an invasion of the Ukraine this year.
 
#30,286
#30,286
Rasputin_Vol said:
It is completely justified. Protecting the civilian population in the east and preventing further NATO expansion on their doorstep. NATO countries have done similar or worse and they were able to justify their actions.
Click to expand...
Ukraine’s people have the right to join NATO if they choose. It’s not Putin’s choice to dictate their freedom to choose
 
  • Like
Reactions: LouderVol, pattiycake, AM64 and 3 others
#30,287
#30,287
  • Like
Reactions: Rocky_Top_Vol13, AM64 and NorthDallas40
#30,290
#30,290
Rasputin_Vol said:
That simply is not correct. Yanukovich won these very same areas in 2004 and 2010 elections and could have only done so with the Ukrainians that live there also supporting him. And there is no reason to think that after the US ousted the candidate they supported, that these same people would not be just as pizzed about the outcome of the coup as their Russian neighbors.

1024px-%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8_2004.png



2010 Map
1024px-%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png
Click to expand...


You're conflating the question of Donbas status/disposition with the election of Janukovych. The range of status options is about half a dozen models ranging from the current Kyiv centricity to full-blown secession from Ukraine. No polling - I've linked them in prior posts - before or since 2014 has show more than a small minority favoring secession, but a continual majority favoring remaining Ukraine, even if desiring more autonomy of everyday governance and economic matters under local governance.

In fact, the counter-referendum held in Donbas in non-separatist areas of Donetsk oblast of May 11, 2014 saw 2.9 million voters of 4.3 million populace participating. To the question of "Are you for maintaining your territorial community within Ukraine and reunification with the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast?" (Dnipropetrovsk is the Ukraine oblast adjacent to western Donetsk and Luhansk and is 80% ethnic Ukrainian and 18% ethnic Russian. Reunification means dismantling the LP/DPR insurrection and remaining Ukrainian, and whether to be annexed by Dnipropetrovsk oblast)

Yes
69.1%
Against reunification and against separatism
27.2%
No, separate
3.7%

Now, according to the assertion you draw from your map there was no greater hotbed of Yanukovych support than Donetsk. Yet, 96% voted against separating from Ukraine and only 4% for separatism. There is no correlation between Yanukovych election support and desire to separate from Ukraine.

That, despite nearly a decade of Russian influence campaign to erode Ukraine sovereignty - including issuance of roughly a million Russ passports, clearly violating Minsk and Budapest - continual military incursions and armament, propping up thug LPR and DPR governments who coerce, disenfranchise, and criminalize support for Ukraine to force their migration and cement areas of control. Zelensky factually termed it an invasion of eight years by Russia.

There was no coup. In the face of massive protests against his rejection of the EU Association Agreement, cowardly Yank left his post and a governmental vacuum which the Ukraine parliament filled. He should have been able to remain in eastern Ukraine with all that support, right? Yet he reverted to Russia within a week of leaving Kyiv instead of "New Russia" as Putin likes to refer to E. Ukraine. When Putin refers to Ukraine - as a whole - as an artificial construct and that it is Russia inhabited by Russians, he makes his intent clear. This isn't about and LPR/DPR 'independence', but Russian dominion of Ukraine.

You can keep telling us what Putin really means, I take him at his word and actions.

You're fond of anecdotes; let's hear from Donetsk residents calling for Yanukovych to resign in Dec. 2013 following his failure to allow Ukraine to exit Russia's decrepit, corrupt orbit:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: marcusluvsvols, AM64, NorthDallas40 and 2 others
#30,295
#30,295
DonjoVol said:
He does make a good point. If Ukraine is taking out all these Russian generals, ships, tanks and if Russia is losing this war then why would Ukraine need any help from the U.S., NATO, or the West?
Click to expand...
Lol. There are plenty of conclusions to be drawn from that question. But that was not a logical one.

If russia is winning why are they calling up help from their allies?

Maybe they are winning because of the help. Maybe they realize their losses would be worse without help. Maybe they want friends/allies for the future. Maybe they want to make sure Russia never does this again in a round three.

Just because you can do something alone doesnt mean you should do it alone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64, NorthDallas40 and Rickyvol77
#30,297
#30,297
DonjoVol said:
And once again if they are winning and Russia is losing it would only make sense to let Ukraine keep doing what they are doing. They don't need our help. We have more important things to worry about here.
Click to expand...
Just curious, what problems are we going to solve here with tanks, cannons, and missiles?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77
#30,299
#30,299
Rasputin_Vol said:
No regional power would stand for that kind of disruption and chaos on a bordering country. Not one. Not even the US, especially if people they have close ties with are being attacked.
Click to expand...
Then maybe they shouldnt have supplied the arms that caused that disruption.
 
#30,300
#30,300
Rasputin_Vol said:
And they still voted majority for Yanukovich in 2004 and 2010 as well as the referendums in 2015. So obviously, there were Ukrainians that sided with the Russian people there also.
Click to expand...
2004 was overturned by their supreme court because Yanukovich supported almost doubled in the runoff, and many of the votes could not be verified.

And in 2010 and 14 he was pro West. Seems odd they would vote for a pro West guy if they wanted to join Russia.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement

Back
Top