War in Ukraine

#29,177
#29,177
DonjoVol said:
Exactly what some of the wannabe John Boltons in here have been dreaming of.
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Everyone in here that said "don't do a single thing for Ukraine, don't even open the door for our political class to do this" is just a pro-Russian stooge though.

This was so predictable and anyone that couldn't see it coming is not too bright.
 
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#29,181
#29,181
Burhead said:
I'm sorry but Russian use of WMDs would be a game changer like it or not. Leveling cities using conventional means is one thing but if Russia crosses that threshold the world would have to respond.
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First of all there would need to be proof they are actually using those weapons. Not just reports. Remember Iraq once had WMDs.

Second. Where in the heck do you and others think it's okay to send our own troops over there to fight?
 
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#29,183
#29,183
DonjoVol said:
First of all there would need to be proof they are actually using those weapons. Not just reports. Remember Iraq once had WMDs.

Second. Where in the heck do you and others think it's okay to send our own troops over there to fight?
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I'm not going to rehash Iraq because it was a mistake but yes Iraq did have and did use WMDs. Just because they didn't have nukes doesn't mean they didn't have WMDs...

That said I would only support intervention if there is proof of Russian use of WMDs. Beyond that we should only keep doing what we're doing now until that line is crossed. You may disagree but any use of weapons of mass destruction should draw a response like it or not. We don't want to live in a world where there isn't consequences when you decide to employ those types of weapons.
 
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#29,184
#29,184
DonjoVol said:
Exactly what some of the wannabe John Boltons in here have been dreaming of.
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Well, you've also have your fair share of those that just want to flood the country with weapons, but hope that it doesn't boil over into needing boots on the ground. Those people are the useful idiots, because they are playing into the escalation game without being clever enough to be aware of it. The people running this show in The West have no reverse gear and they are ideologically driven. So weapons dumps is only Step 1. If Step 1 doesn't work, then they will turn up the heat a bit more, and continue on.
 
#29,186
#29,186
ButchPlz said:
Everyone in here that said "don't do a single thing for Ukraine, don't even open the door for our political class to do this" is just a pro-Russian stooge though.

This was so predictable and anyone that couldn't see it coming is not too bright.
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What amazes me is that some of the same people that are saying this today are the same people 60 days ago shooting down anything from this administration that involved COVID, Jan 6th, the 2020 election, Hunter Biden laptop etc. But on this issue, the White House and the media are getting it right... even after the Ghost of Kyiv and Snake Island nonsense.
 
#29,189
#29,189
Rasputin_Vol said:
And what about false flag events by The West?
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Although the term whataboutism spread recently, Edward Lucas's 2008 Economist article states that "Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed 'whataboutism'. Any criticism of the Soviet Union (Afghanistan, martial law in Poland, imprisonment of dissidents, censorship) was met with a 'What about...' (apartheid South Africa, jailed trade-unionists, the Contras in Nicaragua, and so forth)." Lucas recommended two methods of properly countering whataboutism: to "use points made by Russian leaders themselves" so that they cannot be applied to the West, and for Western nations to engage in more self-criticism of their own media and government.[4]

Following the publication of Lucas's 2007 and 2008 articles and his 2008 book The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West, which featured the same themes,[15] opinion writers at prominent English language media outlets began using the term and echoing the themes laid out by Lucas, including the association with the Soviet Union and Russia. Journalist Luke Harding described Russian whataboutism as "practically a national ideology".[16] Writing for Bloomberg News, Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition",[17] while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences".[18] Julia Ioffe called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic",[19][20] and compared it to accusing the pot of calling the kettle black.[21]

Several articles connected whataboutism to the Soviet era by pointing to the "And you are lynching Negroes" example (as Lucas did), in which Soviets deflected criticism by referencing racism in the Jim Crow United States. Ioffe, who has written about whataboutism in at least three separate outlets,[22][20][23] called it a "classic" example of the tactic.[24] Some writers also identified more recent examples when Russian officials responded to critique by, for example, redirecting attention to the United Kingdom's anti-protest laws[25] or Russians' difficulty obtaining a visa to the United Kingdom.[26] In 2006, Putin replied to George W. Bush’s criticism of Russia that he "did not want to head a democracy like Iraq's."[27] In 2017 Ben Zimmer noted that Putin also used the tactic in an interview with NBC News journalist Megyn Kelly.[28]

The term receives increased attention when controversies involving Russia are in the news. For example, writing for Slate in 2014, Joshua Keating noted the use of "whataboutism" in a statement on Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea, where Putin "listed a litany of complaints about Western intervention."[29]
 
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#29,193
#29,193
Rasputin_Vol said:
Sure an ICBM would be pretty easy to verify, but that is just one specific thing.

What about a chemical or biological attack or a tactical nuke? Those can easily be blamed on someone else. Syria is the perfect example of this.
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We're talking specifically nukes. If a tactical nuke goes off in Ukraine we'll know it. Of course Russia will try to blame someone else. But they won't be fooling anyone.
 
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#29,194
#29,194
The craziest part about this is that the chaos seen till now is only the beginning. This MF'r is bringing the middle east into Ukraine. Nothing is going to make sense anymore on the battle field. It will be chaos.
 
#29,195
#29,195
Hunerwadel said:
We're talking specifically nukes. If a tactical nuke goes off in Ukraine we'll know it. Of course Russia will try to blame someone else. But they won't be fooling anyone.
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Oh sure. We don't need any proof or verification. We will automatically know it was Russia.
 
#29,198
#29,198
He's pulled most of his mercenary armies out of the middle east (not all), where they have been causing chaos and disorder in several countries and is inserting them on the battle field. These are paid armies (a few tens of thousands). They have one job. War. They have been killing and torturing anything in the way of war, including Russians who protest.
 
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#29,200
#29,200
If you've read my posts you know I'm a hawk on the issue of bleeding the Russians.

But let's get this straight, the Russians can use nukes, they can use biological/ chemical attacks on civilians, it does not matter, there will not be American troops on the ground in the Ukraine (other than technical advisors with respect to US weaponry) or American pilots in Ukrainian airspace.

Rule #1, you do not get involved in ground wars with either China or Russia on the continent. The US people will not tolerate the losses involved unless it's the result of a direct attack on the US. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people and I don't think they'll ever know how many were killed in post revolutionary China through to and including the Cultural Revolution.
 
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