War in Ukraine

#27,176
#27,176
volgr said:
Let's, for the sake of argument, say that is true. Why do we care or why did we ever care?
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I don't need to believe it is true because it is an irrefutable fact. I don't care about political meddling. It happens across the globe. I do care about innocent people dying simply because one nation wants reassert its control over another for imaginary reasons. It isn't right. You and Ras continue to compare what Russia is doing to Ukraine with what the US did in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. Those comparisons are demonstrably false and it's the main reason you two lunkheads can't grasp why you get criticized. The US was wrong to invade Iraq in hindsight and deserved everything that came from that invasion because we did so under extremely flimsy pretenses but even those pretenses were rock solid compared to Russia's current invasion of Ukraine. Why do you not care about innocent people dying? I do whether it is Ukraine or some random nation in Africa.
 
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#27,177
#27,177
volgr said:
Thus far, looks like Russia is advancing relatively quickly through the Donbas. Ukraine forces seem to be spent and demoralized and giving only token resistance now.

As I said over a month ago, the end result is already known the only unknown is how many Ukrainian service members and innocent civilians have to be sacrificed for the West and their puppet cokehead's pride.
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You are a meth loving practicing NAMBLA member..........


See how easy that is, someone on the internet said it so it has to be true.
 
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#27,178
#27,178
OHvol40 said:
Right, but their perceptions about alliances were based on their reality. Their reality was creating a nation of a former colony that was isolated by oceans, power dynamics of 18th century Europe, and an agricultural export economy. Their reality did not include the industrial revolution, WWII, oil dependence, a post-industrial consumer economy, getting anywhere on the globe in less than a day, the Internet, cell phones, or thousands of other eventualities.
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I take a dim view of the assertion that the founders were simply men of their time, and that nothing more than that eclipsed moment in time confined their observations. Greco-Roman culture, specifically governance, is probably the largest influence on their thinking in the matter, in addition to the enlightenment. They were well aware of governments prior to them and their utility in creating ours.

The industrial revolution in Britain and the colonies began around 1750 with the colonial arrival of British steam engines in that decade.. At the time of the colonial revolt, Britain had the most advanced textile mills and machinery in the world; machine made silk was being made in Britain at least as early as the 1740s - did the colonials not know this? The first colonial mill was established in MA in 1787.

Likewise, they were well aware of advances in weaponry, mechanization, and industry. It was not an invalidation of them for not foreseeing nuclear technology. None of those things change human nature which they understood very well. It's a trifling, unserious perspective that they unaware of how the societies ancient and present were not brought into warfare by alliances that did not always benefit them. What has really changed since the time when France, Britain, and Spain literally ruled the globe? Or Rome?

Not personal, but the "they couldn't possibly foresee..." and thus were dumb, cotton-peddling hicks for not having 24x7 Twitter access, is tiresome. That we're somehow more intelligent and of greater vision.

They weren't, and we aren't.
 
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#27,183
#27,183
NCFisher said:
I take a dim view of the assertion that the founders were simply men of their time, and that nothing more than that eclipsed moment in time confined their observations. Greco-Roman culture, specifically governance, is probably the largest influence on their thinking in the matter, in addition to the enlightenment. They were well aware of governments prior to them and their utility in creating ours.

The industrial revolution in Britain and the colonies began around 1750 with the colonial arrival of British steam engines in that decade.. At the time of the colonial revolt, Britain had the most advanced textile mills and machinery in the world; machine made silk was being made in Britain at least as early as the 1740s - did the colonials not know this? The first colonial mill was established in MA in 1787.

Likewise, they were well aware of advances in weaponry, mechanization, and industry. It was not an invalidation of them for not foreseeing nuclear technology. None of those things change human nature which they understood very well. It's a trifling, unserious perspective that they unaware of how the societies ancient and present were not brought into warfare by alliances that did not always benefit them. What has really changed since the time when France, Britain, and Spain literally ruled the globe? Or Rome?

Not personal, but the "they couldn't possibly foresee..." and thus were dumb, cotton-peddling hicks for not having 24x7 Twitter access, is tiresome. That we're somehow more intelligent and of greater vision.

They weren't, and we aren't.
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I never insinuated they were dumb. I have never insinuated that they were even wrong in most of their assertions and wonderings. What I have asserted is that they were not omnipotent. There is a difference between referring back to the founder’s original intentions for guidance and using their words to forego your own critical thinking that needs applied to today’s context. I think we tend to do this as a majority Christian country because it’s ingrained into Christian culture that defaulting to the founder’s words in all instances is standard practice… but that’s just my personal theory.

Pretending that we can read the minds of men that have been dead for a quarter millennia, and that we know for fact that they wouldn’t think any differently in today’s context is a fool’s errands.
 
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#27,189
#27,189
volgr said:
It amazes me how most of you are either ignorant or naïve to the fact that the West and more directly the US, is directly involved and have been for years.
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We may be involved in Ukraine for years. But russia has been involved for centuries. Its half the reasoning you guys are justifying Russias war.

Apparently the FSB just straight up disappeared out of Ukraine and CIA strolled in to a completely virgin nation to screw it all up. That defies any type of logic especially when you consider Russias actions around this entire timeline.

They took in the Ukraine ex president to protect their asset. They were already in place and ready to take over Crimea, you dont pull that operation off over night. And they suddenly just so happened to have a bunch of spare equipment missing that just so happened to be found in Donbas by the rebels before they even left Ukraine.

Those three things, regardless of what you think happened in Maiden, mean the Russians were already balls deep ready to take land from Ukraine. Which means they were meddling just as much.

Further you want to argue that the side that HASNT sent troops in is MORE involved than the nation that HAS sent troops in. That's laughable on its face. Your priorities on involvement make no sense. And I 100% am willing to bet you dont keep that same standard when its flipped.

During vietnam we put troops on the ground to help a democratically elected government fight a warlord. Russia supplied that warlord with equipment. Under you insane twisted logic Russia was a bigger player in Vietnam than we were.
 
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#27,191
#27,191
LouderVol said:
We may be involved in Ukraine for years. But russia has been involved for centuries. Its half the reasoning you guys are justifying Russias war.

Apparently the FSB just straight up disappeared out of Ukraine and CIA strolled in to a completely virgin nation to screw it all up. That defies any type of logic especially when you consider Russias actions around this entire timeline.

They took in the Ukraine ex president to protect their asset. They were already in place and ready to take over Crimea, you dont pull that operation off over night. And they suddenly just so happened to have a bunch of spare equipment missing that just so happened to be found in Donbas by the rebels before they even left Ukraine.

Those three things, regardless of what you think happened in Maiden, mean the Russians were already balls deep ready to take land from Ukraine. Which means they were meddling just as much.

Further you want to argue that the side that HASNT sent troops in is MORE involved than the nation that HAS sent troops in. That's laughable on its face. Your priorities on involvement make no sense. And I 100% am willing to bet you dont keep that same standard when its flipped.

During vietnam we put troops on the ground to help a democratically elected government fight a warlord. Russia supplied that warlord with equipment. Under you insane twisted logic Russia was a bigger player in Vietnam than we were.
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I don't deny Russia was meddling in Ukraine and Ukraine was meddling in Russia. It's a family dispute between neighbors. So, why did we insert ourselves? Also, your Vietnam comparison is fundamentally flawed, although there is one good comparison to be made. In both the case of Vietnam and Ukraine, the US inserted itself in a situation on the other side of the globe that had no bearing on our security.
 
#27,192
#27,192
Rickyvol77 said:
Because you said the west meddled worse which is ridiculous considering russia actually invaded a sovereign country and is killing innocent people. The west isn’t doing that and haven’t
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No, I said, why did we care that Russia was meddling in Ukraine? To which, no one has yet to answer.
 
#27,194
#27,194
volgr said:
No, I said, why did we care that Russia was meddling in Ukraine? To which, no one has yet to answer.
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Because the Russians are a bunch of repressive **** baskets and our government feels it is necessary to intervene in this matter. Right or wrong that is reality.
 
#27,195
#27,195
volgr said:
No, I said, why did we care that Russia was meddling in Ukraine? To which, no one has yet to answer.
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I don’t care if Russia “meddles” in Ukraine. The world pretty much cares if they “invade and rape and pillage” in Ukraine. Clown. 🤡

Russia needs to keep the raping and pillaging in their own country like China
 
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#27,197
#27,197
NorthDallas40 said:
I don’t care if Russia “meddles” in Ukraine. The world pretty much cares if they “invade and rape and pillage” in Ukraine. Clown. 🤡

Russia needs to keep the raping and pillaging in their own country like China
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If no one cares that Russia was meddling in Ukraine, then why do most of you keep telling me...because "Russia was meddling in Ukraine first"?
 
#27,198
#27,198
volgr said:
I don't deny Russia was meddling in Ukraine and Ukraine was meddling in Russia. It's a family dispute between neighbors. So, why did we insert ourselves? Also, your Vietnam comparison is fundamentally flawed, although there is one good comparison to be made. In both the case of Vietnam and Ukraine, the US inserted itself in a situation on the other side of the globe that had no bearing on our security.
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Ukraine invited us. Heck they are begging us for more. That's the same argument that has been used for Russias involvement in Syria.
 
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#27,199
#27,199
PEPPERJAX said:
Because the Russians are a bunch of repressive **** baskets and our government feels it is necessary to intervene in this matter. Right or wrong that is reality.
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I wonder if we send Kool-Aid hair products and feminine hygiene materials in our aide packages? I mean, the entire purpose of our military is to be inclusive, isn't it?
 
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