War in Ukraine

#26,901
#26,901
Interesting conspiracy theory (just for fun)…what if Europe’s green parties and other environmentally conscious politicians (ie ALL of them) hoped for and secretly encouraged Putin’s war knowing that it would destroy the use of Russian Fossil Fuels, thus hastening “clean” energy. Interesting story on NPR this morning about European cities ripping out Natural Gas lines and forcing neighborhoods to go “all electric”. Was already happening but the trend is accelerating now that cheap Russian natural gas isn’t there anymore. Basically pre invasion, Europe was expanding Natural gas imports from Russian (see Germany and the Nordstrom pipeline). Now in an instant, future plan drop from growth to zero. Quite a blessing for Natural Gas’s “clean” competitors, no?
 
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#26,904
#26,904
LouderVol said:
They knew that entangling alliances would be a determinant to us. They were right about that.

They knew political parties would be a determinant to us even though they didnt exist. They were right about that.
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They were just a bunch of dummies.
 
#26,905
#26,905
OHvol40 said:
Right, but their perceptions about alliances were based on their reality. Their reality was creating a nation of a former colony that was isolated by oceans, power dynamics of 18th century Europe, and an agricultural export economy. Their reality did not include the industrial revolution, WWII, oil dependence, a post-industrial consumer economy, getting anywhere on the globe in less than a day, the Internet, cell phones, or thousands of other eventualities.
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Yet they wrote a document that still applies and covers all of what you mentioned.
 
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#26,906
#26,906
LouderVol said:
Why not?

You claim to explain stuff and leave it at a fifth graders "nu uh".
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Because they were Soviet controlled. At no point was Ukraine going to gain control of those nukes, ICBM's, etc. Had they tried, it would have been very quickly squashed.
 
#26,909
#26,909
luthervol said:
That's because he knew it was absolutely essential. He also wanted to leave things like the bill of rights up to the states.
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State bill of rights would have been meaningless with Hamiltons visions of supremacy of the federal government. You forget that the BoRs was to protect us and the states from the federal government.
 
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#26,912
#26,912
hog88 said:
Yet they wrote a document that still applies and covers all of what you mentioned.
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What is funny about his claim, during Washington and Adams Presidencies, 2 of the bigger world powers at that time were going at it (France and England). So this notion that the Founders couldn't "dream of such a situation" is laughably incorrect. We were tested right out of the gate. Washington went from hero to reviled by some, for remaining neutral. Adams likely lost a chance at a second term because of his remaining neutral as Washington had. So, these men didn't just pay lip service to the notion of staying out entangling alliances.
 
#26,915
#26,915
volgr said:
What is funny about his claim, during Washington and Adams Presidencies, 2 of the bigger world powers at that time were going at it (France and England). So this notion that the Founders couldn't "dream of such a situation" is laughably incorrect. We were tested right out of the gate. Washington went from hero to reviled by some, for remaining neutral. Adams likely lost a chance at a second term because of his remaining neutral as Washington had. So, these men didn't just pay lip service to the notion of staying out entangling alliances.
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Yet we did get entangled in Ukraine in 1994. Which the FFs wouldn’t ignore once executed. As did your Mother Russia. And since Russia broke their commitments multiple times we are adhering to ours and suppling lethal aid to run their invading asses back out Larry.
 
#26,916
#26,916
NorthDallas40 said:
Yet we did get entangled in Ukraine in 1994. Which the FFs wouldn’t ignore once executed. As did your Mother Russia. And since Russia broke their commitments multiple times we are adhering to ours and suppling lethal aid to run their invading asses back out Larry.
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We can support Ukraine without hiding behind a Memorandum which your own source says doesnt explicitly give Ukraine defense obligations.

If you support our govt giving Billions to their defense, be proud of it and support it.
 
#26,917
#26,917
volgr said:
We can support Ukraine without hiding behind a Memorandum which your own source says doesnt explicitly give Ukraine defense obligations.

If you support our govt giving Billions to their defense, be proud of it and support it.
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Actually the source acknowledged there are clear defense obligations including lethal aid. You can’t acknowledge that however. And why did Russia break the agreement multiple times after signing it Larry? 🤡
 
#26,918
#26,918
volgr said:
Not glee, reality.
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No. Glee. Smugness. Joy.

And it's sad. russia is a two bit power with nukes run by a sociopath. I want them to fail at everything, and I refuse to give any support or attention to their successes, few as they are.

Not sure if you are allowing domestic politics to shape your perception, but regardless of your personal politics, russia wants the US to fail. They are my enemy. Screw em.

But you be you.
 
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#26,919
#26,919
volgr said:
Because they were Soviet controlled. At no point was Ukraine going to gain control of those nukes, ICBM's, etc. Had they tried, it would have been very quickly squashed.
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But the Soviets were all magically gone, remember? And we were left with Uzebikistanis, Ukrainians, Estonians, Russians, etc.

And all the host nations kept whatever was in their country after the Soviets were gone.
 
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#26,920
#26,920
NorthDallas40 said:
Actually the source acknowledged there are clear defense obligations including lethal aid. You can’t acknowledge that however. And why did Russia break the agreement multiple times after signing it Larry? 🤡
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Your source was clear that it doesnt explicitly state any sort of thing. Then YOU further effed it up by saying lawyers soft sold it. So, even YOU dont believe what you are trying to sell.

Now, you want to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Look Pedro, it didnt explicitly give defense obligations because the US isnt dumb enough to sign such an agreement.
 
#26,921
#26,921
volgr said:
Your source was clear that it doesnt explicitly state any sort of thing. Then YOU further effed it up by saying lawyers soft sold it. So, even YOU dont believe what you are trying to sell.

Now, you want to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Look Pedro, it didnt explicitly give defense obligations because the US isnt dumb enough to sign such an agreement.
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The lawyers DID soft sell it. Go read the damn transcript at Brookings where the source spoke. The lawyers wouldn’t allow the word guarantees however the language used clearly shows obligations as he clearly states

And looks like the Russians were stupid enough to sign it Larry. Still waiting on that mind f$&k of an explanation I’ll bet it’s a doozy 🤡
 
#26,922
#26,922
LouderVol said:
But the Soviets were all magically gone, remember? And we were left with Uzebikistanis, Ukrainians, Estonians, Russians, etc.

And all the host nations kept whatever was in their country after the Soviets were gone.
Click to expand...

They didnt keep nukes, never had control of them and never would have been allowed to control them, as I have explained. Whether they kept other old Soviet equipment or were allowed to, doesnt change anything.
 
#26,923
#26,923
VolInNW said:
No. Glee. Smugness. Joy.

And it's sad. russia is a two bit power with nukes run by a sociopath. I want them to fail at everything, and I refuse to give any support or attention to their successes, few as they are.

Not sure if you are allowing domestic politics to shape your perception, but regardless of your personal politics, russia wants the US to fail. They are my enemy. Screw em.

But you be you.
Click to expand...

Russia has immense resources, making them an enemy over their reasonable actions regarding a largely inconsequential Country in Ukraine, is really stupid to be honest. But, stupidity is generally how our corrupt bankrupt Federal Govt approaches foreign policy these days.
 
#26,924
#26,924
volgr said:
They didnt keep nukes, never had control of them and never would have been allowed to control them, as I have explained. Whether they kept other old Soviet equipment or were allowed to, doesnt change anything.
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So then no one had control of the nukes.

There is absolutely, zero reason for anyone to assume the nukes were different. You dont have to be able to manufacture more to be able to have nukes. You dont have to have easy access to firing the ICBMs the nukes are attached to have nukes.

The Ukrainians had them. The russians had to get permission to go get them. Ukraine is the only nation to give up being a nuclear power, and we have all learned that's a bad idea.
 
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#26,925
#26,925
volgr said:
Russia has immense resources, making them an enemy over their reasonable actions regarding a largely inconsequential Country in Ukraine, is really stupid to be honest. But, stupidity is generally how our corrupt bankrupt Federal Govt approaches foreign policy these days.
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Reasonable actions my a$$.
and I have a hard time calling 44 million people inconsequential.
 
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