War in Ukraine

#25,551
#25,551
McDad said:
I've seen the rationalization of America's meddling caused Russia's aggression many times in this thread.
Are there any reputable sources which outline recent Ukrainian history?
Click to expand...
The people were not happy with their elected president after he cozied to Putin. I'm not providing a rationalization, at least not attempting to. It seems to me there were two competing camps. Pro west and pro Russia. Pro west won in the idea marketplace of Ukraine.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#25,553
#25,553
KB5252 said:
They people were not happy with their elected president after he cozied to Putin. I'm not providing a rationalization, at least not attempting to. It seems to me there were two competing camps. Pro west and pro Russia. Pro west won in the idea marketplace of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Is this common knowledge or did you read this somewhere?
 
#25,554
#25,554
Rasputin_Vol said:
The Russians, Chinese and Indians have been calling for an independent investigation in Bucha and the UK shot that down. Don't point the finger at me or Russia. The West should be more than willing to open up an investigation. What are they afraid of?
Click to expand...

I certainly would like to see an independent - even if it is UN run - investigation. Anything else is highly suspect. I would not trust what Ukraine produces in the slightest, especially with time and access to manufacture evidence.

My general lean is if you see what is claimed to be a mass killing of civilians by the invading army, then it probably is. But not necessarily, as we learned the hard way in Yugoslavia. Once we went in and tried to verify some of that, the stories were not always aligned, and all sides were perpetrators (though not equally).
 
  • Like
Reactions: NurseGoodVol, AM64, Sandman 423 and 1 other person
#25,556
#25,556
McDad said:
Is this common knowledge or did you read this somewhere?
Click to expand...

This gives you as handy a breakdown as any as to what the make up is politically there - its worth reading the other pages at Goodbye Lenin: A Memory Shift in Revolutionary Ukraine and seeing the other maps, like where Lenin statues were removed and where Bandera monuments were erected.
map-1.png


Also, here are some good historical pieces that predate Feb

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/...ng-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/
Ukraine profile - Timeline
 
#25,557
#25,557
Gandalf said:
This gives you as handy a breakdown as any as to what the make up is politically there - its worth reading the other pages at Goodbye Lenin: A Memory Shift in Revolutionary Ukraine and seeing the other maps, like where Lenin statues were removed and where Bandera monuments were erected.
map-1.png


Also, here are some good historical pieces that predate Feb

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/...ng-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/
Ukraine profile - Timeline
Click to expand...
It was, but Russian aggression has permanently altered this viewpoint. I don’t doubt they have support in Crimea and a much smaller part of the Donbas than they claim.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77
#25,558
#25,558
Gandalf said:
This gives you as handy a breakdown as any as to what the make up is politically there - its worth reading the other pages at Goodbye Lenin: A Memory Shift in Revolutionary Ukraine and seeing the other maps, like where Lenin statues were removed and where Bandera monuments were erected.
map-1.png


Also, here are some good historical pieces that predate Feb

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/...ng-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/
Ukraine profile - Timeline
Click to expand...
Looks like the further west, the more "western" the ideology. Are differences linked only to geography or are there other factors?
 
#25,562
#25,562
McDad said:
Is this common knowledge or did you read this somewhere?
Click to expand...
Read some articles months ago, some dated back to 2016, translated Ukraine articles.

I was also vaguely aware of the protests and violence at the time. A lot of both sides blaming each other. But what this really is is a deeply divided country, some pro Russian but the majority anti Russian.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: McDad
#25,564
#25,564
McDad said:
Looks like the further west, the more "western" the ideology. Are differences linked only to geography or are there other factors?
Click to expand...
There are always other factors. Though here Russians and it's historical supporters were concentrated at the port cities and the extreme east.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64 and McDad
#25,565
#25,565
Rasputin_Vol said:
Tell your friend that Russia spent 8 years holding their hands in their pockets while the Kiev regime attacked the Donbas and that NATO ignored Russia's legitimate security concerns. Tell your friend that the US needs to fix the problems here in America and get out of the regime change business.
Click to expand...

Did you just suggest that Russia wasn't aiding the separatist forces for those 8 years? You have a very soft spot for them for some odd reason and we agree on the regime change business
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#25,566
#25,566
volgr said:
I dont ignore it, but when most likely trajectory is from Ukraine held territory, Ukraine uses these far more often than Russia, Ukraine has used them recently in this conflict against civilians, Ukraine has more motive to do this than Russia and you take into account the high likelihood that due to the serial number on the rocket it was Ukrainian owned...all evidence seems to point in one direction.
Click to expand...

When did Ukraine use them in this war against their own civilians? I will hang up and listen
 
#25,568
#25,568
Rasputin_Vol said:
If you don't see that "for the children" is a psyop and propaganda, you aren't thinking critically. It is an obvious set up, just like the West tried to do in Syria and Assad allegedly using chemical attacks.
Click to expand...
We have Ukrainian grandmas stuffing sunflower seeds in armed, living, russian soldiers uniforms. Your assumption of a pysop is based on a western mindset, not a Slavic centric one.

To put it another way Slavs love being " petty" to each other, it goes with their generally nihilistic (from a western viewpoint) stance on life. We have Ukrainian farmers stealing Russian tanks, in the west that's a psyop, in Slav world that is everyday. Moving mines while smoking, not dropping a cigarette while your building is bombed. All western psyops until you realize these people are actually crazy when compared to most of the west. There are prewar videos of them jumping off ten story buildings into snow drifts. Average people having bears or big cats as pets, corruption is not seen as a bad thing, just a way of life.

Their viewpoint is different. Your assumptions are based on western mindsets, not slavic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NurseGoodVol
#25,571
#25,571
Rasputin_Vol said:
Sure. But they also were expecting the other side of the conflict to hold up their end of the Minsk II ceasefire agreement.
Click to expand...
The russian backed separatists werent sitting there peacefully either. If you want to play the game of who started it, it was either the separatists breaking away from Ukraine, or if you want to go back to Maiden it's the Russians buying off the president at the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#25,574
#25,574
McDad said:
Looks like the further west, the more "western" the ideology. Are differences linked only to geography or are there other factors?
Click to expand...

I have no evidence to say this but would guess that the younger set would be more friendly to the West while the older would be nostalgic for Russia.

A great example is this video - old woman comes out waving Soviet flag and literally gives back food when Ukrainian soldier steps on it. Listen to what she says. Anyone saying that all Ukrainians hate Russia are not dealing with the facts.

 
  • Like
Reactions: McDad
#25,575
#25,575
LouderVol said:
We have Ukrainian grandmas stuffing sunflower seeds in armed, living, russian soldiers uniforms. Your assumption of a pysop is based on a western mindset, not a Slavic centric one.

To put it another way Slavs love being " petty" to each other, it goes with their generally nihilistic (from a western viewpoint) stance on life. We have Ukrainian farmers stealing Russian tanks, in the west that's a psyop, in Slav world that is everyday. Moving mines while smoking, not dropping a cigarette while your building is bombed. All western psyops until you realize these people are actually crazy when compared to most of the west. There are prewar videos of them jumping off ten story buildings into snow drifts. Average people having bears or big cats as pets, corruption is not seen as a bad thing, just a way of life.

Their viewpoint is different. Your assumptions are based on western mindsets, not slavic.
Click to expand...

This is a fact - Slavs, in general, are a harder and much more stoic people than Americans. We have lived in the land of fat and peace so long that we focus on pleasuring our emotions at all costs. Slavs, like Navy Seals, have lived in "the suck" for so long they embrace it. Its just about being practical, you become emotionally numb to many things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement

Back
Top