War in Ukraine

[luthervol]

This is also why a govt shouldnt mass arm civilians, instruct civilians to attack military forces with molotov cocktails or other homemade devices, encourage citizens to fire at military forces from their residence, etc. All of which Ukraine did at the start of the war.

All of those are completely appropriate when faced with a hostile invasion by a foreign country.

 

[McDad]

I have been over, and over, and over this multiple times. I've said he is not perfect, but he is fighting entities that are not just destroying our country morally... these guys are destroying us economically, militarily, demographically... they are killing us on all important fronts. These people, if they are successful in Ukraine, will empower them and lead to them moving their influence to one of the last places on earth that is pushing against them and their agenda.

I understand all of that. I wasn't asking on your views of Putin. I was asking you to delve into your agreement with his verbal stance against 'cultural decay/family values' and to further see where you draw the line with an "ends justify the means" to reform America culturally.

I don't fault you for respecting him. It really doesn't matter to me or change how I think about you. I am curious about your thinking and trying to understand you better.

No biggie. As I said earlier, moving on.

 

[KB5252]

OKie Dokie. I know also if I had referred to them as super human, you or someone would have found fault with that too. So I don't pay it much mind either way.

You referred to them as sub human, chimps in fact. When one does this they forfeit the argument and expose themselves.

You can have whatever political beliefs you want, but when you view people or a group as less than human you have shown yourself to have the feeble mind.

 

[luthervol]

Whine is the perfect word. If you are worried about civilian casualties, maybe dont justify a govt encouraging guerrila warfare among the citizenry or a military embedding itself in civilian infrastructure. Or be consistent and say it is wrong, but you won't.

All of those things are appropriate when facing a hostile invasion by another country.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

He won’t answer directly because he knows his views are indefensible and incompatible with his previous statements

Or it was a question that I answered correctly and precisely. Obviously, just for holding an opinion or having a certain view doesn't mean that you need to be put to death in the United States.

But, if a person is unvaccinated or wants alternative treatment and the doctors or medical bureaucrats deny them treatment? Well, it might be "legal" for them to do that, but if there was real justice and karma, those type of people should suffer the same fate as those patients they essentially killed. But since we live in a (relatively) civilized country, I suppose they can walk free among us.

 

[KB5252]

You get it. You just said the key distinction. Although, I would hope that you would walk that back, because not even I believed that the bombing campaign was meant to "target" civilians, but then again that place was leveled.

Also, the aggressors were the same aggressors that have been shelling the Donbas for the past 8 years... the Kiev regime.

No, we absolutely targeted densely populated civilian areas because it was a key industrial hub for the Nazi war effort. It is what it is, no need to mince words, no purpose in walking it back.

Russia is targeting these densely populated civilian areas because they consider them key to whatever their mission is. They know that armed forces as well as civilians are there and still consider it essential to their mission...... Just as we did in Dresden.

The difference here is it is a sustained seige and Russia has been unwilling in many instances of opening up humanitarian corridors presumably because they fear Ukrainian forces will take advantage.

Russia supported and participated in the armed revolt in the breakaway areas of Ukraine that only Russia recognized as independent. That would make Russia the aggressor, despite your attempts to carry their water the bucket is full of holes.

 

[KB5252]

In Mariupol they certainly were. And in Odessa, they were collecting in a school. Not sure if the school was in session or not, but still the idea of using a school opens the door for Western propaganda.

"Look at this school that just got destroyed..."

Along with 90% of the rest of the city.

How dare those Ukrainians defend themselves against invasion!

 

[hog88]

In Mariupol they certainly were. And in Odessa, they were collecting in a school. Not sure if the school was in session or not, but still the idea of using a school opens the door for Western propaganda.

"Look at this school that just got destroyed..."

Well of course it would be used for propaganda, Putin would do the same.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I understand all of that. I wasn't asking on your views of Putin. I was asking you to delve into your agreement with his verbal stance against 'cultural decay/family values' and to further see where you draw the line with an "ends justify the means" to reform America culturally.

I don't fault you for respecting him. It really doesn't matter to me or change how I think about you. I am curious about your thinking and trying to understand you better.

No biggie. As I said earlier, moving on.

My "ends justify the means" comment has been explained, also. I have said that if it means using Russia or any other country as a foe or combatant against these entities, I don't have an issue with that. I have also said that "by any means" necessary means that if it means deviating from the current system to rebuild or running a parallel system, then I'm open to that, also.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I understand all of that. I wasn't asking on your views of Putin. I was asking you to delve into your agreement with his verbal stance against 'cultural decay/family values' and to further see where you draw the line with an "ends justify the means" to reform America culturally.

As an example...

Global economic development hubs pursuing a nationally oriented policy have risen & they do not want to accept neoliberal values imposed by West

 

[KB5252]

This is also why a govt shouldnt mass arm civilians, instruct civilians to attack military forces with molotov cocktails or other homemade devices, encourage citizens to fire at military forces from their residence, etc. All of which Ukraine did at the start of the war.

If you honestly believe that we should just go surrender ourselves back to the British. That's exactly what we did in the revolutionary war.

 

[DonjoVol]

As an example...

I am beginning to think I need to post an interview with Alexander Dugin so people might understand a little what's going on with Russia. Doubt they will listen. Some of these people would probably prefer listening to fingernails on a chalkboard instead of trying to learn something new.

 

[volfanhill]

This is also why a govt shouldnt mass arm civilians, instruct civilians to attack military forces with molotov cocktails or other homemade devices, encourage citizens to fire at military forces from their residence, etc. All of which Ukraine did at the start of the war.

What? That's exactly what I would expect a government to do when invaded. They aren't forcing people to engage. But they are arming those who want to stop this Russian invasion.

 

[KB5252]

Geez dude. If a Ukrainian citizen wants to fight, more power to them, join the military. You support a govt encouraging guerilla warfare by their citizens? They'll be slaughtered. Come on.

Again, we literally did this during our revolution. Guess we should have all just turned around and presented our arses to the British for pounding. I for one am glad there weren't as many people like you in that time.

 

[McDad]

My "ends justify the means" comment has been explained, also. I have said that if it means using Russia or any other country as a foe or combatant against these entities, I don't have an issue with that. I have also said that "by any means" necessary means that if it means deviating from the current system to rebuild or running a parallel system, then I'm open to that, also.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

You aren't providing anything new or explanatory. In fact, you're reverting back to pro-Russia attitudes.

Our conversation was curtailed when I asked about exterminating those responsible for cultural decay.

 

[Septic]

What if Putin Didn’t Miscalculate?

One person's theory -

"Suppose for a moment that Putin never intended to conquer all of Ukraine: that, from the beginning, his real targets were the energy riches of Ukraine’s east, which contain Europe’s second-largest known reserves of natural gas (after Norway’s).

Combine that with Russia’s previous territorial seizures in Crimea (which has huge offshore energy fields) and the eastern provinces of Luhansk and Donetsk (which contain part of an enormous shale-gas field), as well as Putin’s bid to control most or all of Ukraine’s coastline, and the shape of Putin’s ambitions become clear. He’s less interested in reuniting the Russian-speaking world than he is in securing Russia’s energy dominance."

Way more plausible than "de-nazification", way more dickish if he's killing all these people west of the oil fields just to grab MORE oil.

 

[KB5252]

I dont support Russia nor do I oppose them. I understand their rationalization for the current conflict. I also, however, dont support western propaganda either.

At some point guerrila warfare may be neceassary, but Ukraine was pushing this from the start. Whats the point of having a standing army?

One army larger and better equipped...... Now why would we need civilians to take up arms......hmmmmmmmm that's a mystery only to you apparently.

 

[McDad]

As an example...

It doesn't matter to me if Russia wants to be insular or isolated. Or wants to create a new worldwide order based with other like-minded countries. I am pro freedom and pro individual rights. I would hope people would use those blessings to be more responsible and make better choices. But I am not willing to squash the individual for the perceived benefit of the collective.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

No, we absolutely targeted densely populated civilian areas because it was a key industrial hub for the Nazi war effort. It is what it is, no need to mince words, no purpose in walking it back.

Hmmm... I guess I really am not ready just yet to come to terms with that, but I'm not saying you are not correct, either.

Russia is targeting these densely populated civilian areas because they consider them key to whatever their mission is. They know that armed forces as well as civilians are there and still consider it essential to their mission...... Just as we did in Dresden.

They are not targeting areas specifically to kill as many civilians as they can. This is not an extinction or genocide exercise. The Ukrainians are using civil facilities as military staging points and the Russians are going after those specific locations. Obviously, that puts innocent lives at risk, no one is disputing that fact. But they are not going in and indiscriminately bombing every building in site just for the sake of it. In The US, we call that "collateral damage".

The difference here is it is a sustained seige and Russia has been unwilling in many instances of opening up humanitarian corridors presumably because they fear Ukrainian forces will take advantage.

That's false. The humanitarian corridors are part of the same strategy that they used in Syria. The corridors serve two purposes. You evacuate the civilians and you allow deserters on the opposite side to drop their weapons, take off their uniforms and slip away. You are essentially providing your enemy and exit.

Russia supported and participated in the armed revolt in the breakaway areas of Ukraine that only Russia recognized as independent. That would make Russia the aggressor, despite your attempts to carry their water the bucket is full of holes.

Sure they did, and the Donbas was not given the right to be sovereign people after the US coordinated coup in 2014. Had the US not overthrown Yanukovich, Ukraine would have been fully in tact right now.

 

[KB5252]

They can fight how they want to fight, but dont then whine about civilian casualties.

If Ukraine invaded Russia and innocent Russian civilians were being killed I'd be condemning Ukraine....... But that isn't what's happening, yet you can't condemn the aggressor.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It doesn't matter to me if Russia wants to be insular or isolated. Or wants to create a new worldwide order based with other like-minded countries. I am pro freedom and pro individual rights. I would hope people would use those blessings to be more responsible and make better choices. But I am not willing to squash the individual for the perceived benefit of the collective.

Neither am I. But this conflict was totally avoidable. You it seems believe, however that this is because Russia started this for no reason. I, on the other hand, believe that NATO and The US did not respect their security concerns, they intended to use Ukraine as a staging ground for future conflict and they intended to eventually regime change Russia with the intent of being able to fleece Russia in the same manner that they did when Yeltsin was there and in the same manner that they fleece Ukraine right now.

This entire Ukraine project by The West has diddly squat to do with the sovereignty or the will of the average Ukrainian citizen... or the people of Europe or the US, for that matter. This is simply Western oligarchs and politically connected thieves wanting to maintain their money making ventures in that part of the world.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If Ukraine invaded Russia and innocent Russian civilians were being killed I'd be condemning Ukraine....... But that isn't what's happening, yet you can't condemn the aggressor.

They were bombing and killing in the Donbas for 8 years. You can condemn Ukraine about that.

 

[apevol]

They were bombing and killing in the Donbas for 8 years. You can condemn Ukraine about that.

So they weren't invading Russia?

 

[KB5252]

Hmmm... I guess I really am not ready just yet to come to terms with that, but I'm not saying you are not correct, either.

They are not targeting areas specifically to kill as many civilians as they can. This is not an extinction or genocide exercise. The Ukrainians are using civil facilities as military staging points and the Russians are going after those specific locations. Obviously, that puts innocent lives at risk, no one is disputing that fact. But they are not going in and indiscriminately bombing every building in site just for the sake of it. In The US, we call that "collateral damage".

That's false. The humanitarian corridors are part of the same strategy that they used in Syria. The corridors serve two purposes. You evacuate the civilians and you allow deserters on the opposite side to drop their weapons, take off their uniforms and slip away. You are essentially providing your enemy and exit.


Sure they did, and the Donbas was not given the right to be sovereign people after the US coordinated coup in 2014. Had the US not overthrown Yanukovich, Ukraine would have been fully in tact right now.

But they aren't because THE LITERAL REST OF THE COUNTRY WANTED CHANGE! The only regions happy were the pro Russian areas. When a friendly president to the west was installed the breakaway areas were unhappy. The rest of the country was happy..... You know how I know this? Because they continued to elect presidents friendlier to the west.

When you bring war and seige to a city there are no civilian areas. The city becomes the literal battlefield. There are plenty of examples of cease-fire being called and Russians shelling stopping those from fleeing. And fighters aren't fleeing as they did in Syria, they are fighting to protect themselves from a foreign invader. It's what we would and have done in our countries history.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

So they weren't invading Russia?

Nope.