President Joe Biden - Kamala Harris Administration

[hog88]

Been a leader instead of punting to Fauci. Making the only voice people heard Fauci was a colossal mistake and one he should have seen coming. One that it was his job to see coming. Even running a business he should know you dont let one branch drive the entire company.

Trump was about opening up? Could have fooled me here in Georgia.
Trump says he told Kemp: ‘I totally disagree’ with move to reopen Georgia


Everything Rs are loving on Desantis for should really be going to Kemp. Kemp opened up Georgia far sooner than florida was open. And he hasnt pulled the business or school mandate line Desantis did either.

We've agreed Trump made a huge mistake putting Fauci in front of the camera.

Now tell us how Trump could have forced governors and other countries to stay open and producing.

If you want to compare governors, both Kemp and DeSantis shut down their states so neither one deserves credit. DeSantis has surpassed Kemp in the power grab department and IMO is out of consideration for another office. BUT even though I'm not a fan the one governor nobody talks about that never took the step of shutting down his state and left it up to the localities is Lee. He did shut down state gov but he never did implement anything statewide or close private businesses like the other 2 did.

 

[LouderVol]

We've agreed Trump made a huge mistake putting Fauci in front of the camera.

Now tell us how Trump could have forced governors and other countries to stay open and producing.

If you want to compare governors, both Kemp and DeSantis shut down their states so neither one deserves credit. DeSantis has surpassed Kemp in the power grab department and IMO is out of consideration for another office. BUT even though I'm not a fan the one governor nobody talks about that never took the step of shutting down his state and left it up to the localities is Lee. He did shut down state gov but he never did implement anything statewide or close private businesses like the other 2 did.

Kemp did shut things down for about three months. But I have always given a pass for pretty much anything those first couple months after March when nothing was known. So yeah he made a bad call based on not having any information. But after just those three months Kemp was able to look at the data they had and opened up.

And Trump took exception to it because it bucked what was coming out of his office/Fauci's mouth.

Trump didnt get on the open up train until a couple months later when elections warmed up. So yeah trump didnt have the power to open states up, but he should have been a leader and offered at least verbal support to a cause you think he had.

 

[hog88]

Kemp did shut things down for about three months. But I have always given a pass for pretty much anything those first couple months after March when nothing was known. So yeah he made a bad call based on not having any information. But after just those three months Kemp was able to look at the data they had and opened up.

And Trump took exception to it because it bucked what was coming out of his office/Fauci's mouth.

Trump didnt get on the open up train until a couple months later when elections warmed up. So yeah trump didnt have the power to open states up, but he should have been a leader and offered at least verbal support to a cause you think he had.

How many times do we need to agree that Trump failed in leadership at a critical time? But in reality there wasn't much he could have done to stop governors and other countries from shutting down.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Reps. Paul Gosar, Matt Gaetz, AOC, and Cori Bush have joined 39 other lawmakers to urge Biden to seek congressional approval before sending troops into Ukraine

More unified here than I would have expected.

It has always been the responsibility of Congress. Good for them.

 

[LouderVol]

How many times do we need to agree that Trump failed in leadership at a critical time? But in reality there wasn't much he could have done to stop governors and other countries from shutting down.

When you are president your entire job is leadership and messaging.

Saying that he didnt have some open shut switch is deflection away from what he did do beyond the Fauci bit.

 

[hog88]

When you are president your entire job is leadership and messaging.

Saying that he didnt have some open shut switch is deflection away from what he did do beyond the Fauci bit.

You blame him for the supply issues we have now yet can't point to anything he did or didn't do to cause them. Putting fauci on air didn't cause states and countries to shut down.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

We've agreed Trump made a huge mistake putting Fauci in front of the camera.

Now tell us how Trump could have forced governors and other countries to stay open and producing.

If you want to compare governors, both Kemp and DeSantis shut down their states so neither one deserves credit. DeSantis has surpassed Kemp in the power grab department and IMO is out of consideration for another office. BUT even though I'm not a fan the one governor nobody talks about that never took the step of shutting down his state and left it up to the localities is Lee. He did shut down state gov but he never did implement anything statewide or close private businesses like the other 2 did.

There was nothing that Trump could have done after March 20th, 2020 to pull Fauci away from the microphone and cameras. Even if he would have fired him or sat him down, the media would have still given him a platform on their Sunday talk shows or nightly interview shows. Before March 2020, there was no real indication that Fauci would end up being a snake. Hard to really, put that on Trump, imo. Yeah yeah yeah... I get it. Trump put him in that position. But you are asking Trump to be a clairvoyant and have good enough gut instincts about a novel virus to be able to see how to respond. This was brand new territory we were in.

 

[utvolpj]

There was nothing that Trump could have done after March 20th, 2020 to pull Fauci away from the microphone and cameras. Even if he would have fired him or sat him down, the media would have still given him a platform on their Sunday talk shows or nightly interview shows. Before March 2020, there was no real indication that Fauci would end up being a snake. Hard to really, put that on Trump, imo. Yeah yeah yeah... I get it. Trump put him in that position. But you are asking Trump to be a clairvoyant and have good enough gut instincts about a novel virus to be able to see how to respond. This was brand new territory we were in.

He was introduced daily by the POTUS. It gave every appearance that what he said was completely endorsed by the WH. That has a much different effect than going on meet the press for 15min.

 

[AM64]

Been a leader instead of punting to Fauci. Making the only voice people heard Fauci was a colossal mistake and one he should have seen coming. One that it was his job to see coming. Even running a business he should know you dont let one branch drive the entire company.

Trump was about opening up? Could have fooled me here in Georgia.
Trump says he told Kemp: ‘I totally disagree’ with move to reopen Georgia


Everything Rs are loving on Desantis for should really be going to Kemp. Kemp opened up Georgia far sooner than florida was open. And he hasnt pulled the business or school mandate line Desantis did either.

We've reached a point in history where no one knows everything. The government and most companies of any significant scope have "experts" in many different areas. "Leaders" (most execs really don't seem to be that these days) rely on their experts. Fauci was put in place long ago, and like most figureheads who somehow float to the top, became an exec and mouthpiece, and lost his technical expertise. Still he was the "expert" Trump or any other president would have had to consult - there are many other Faucis in the federal government - just in different fields of expertise. The key is how you make/keep federal agencies competent and not self serving bureaucracies, and the answer seems to be that you can't. Our society believes bigger is better - it isn't. Bigger simply means the subject level is broader and the guy at the top knows less about the workings.

With all the news coming in during the initial days of covid - the pictures of overwhelmed hospitals, bodies in makeshift morgues, graves being dug by the thousands, and little real substantive information, I can't fault anybody for what we now consider bad decisions. It's even worse when you consider Chinese duplicity - and that of researchers (including Fauci) who worked with the Chinese. If you fault Trump for Fauci, why not biden because last I knew Fauci is still on the job.

Another little secret about organizations. There are often layers and layers between the decision maker and the technical people in the know - the people "on the scene" who should make the decision. Those layers of management in between change the message to something more palatable to the next guy up - tell them what they want to hear. The stronger the personality in charge, the less chance he's going to get straight information ... and that's the fact, Jack.

 

[AM64]

He was introduced daily by the POTUS. It gave every appearance that what he said was completely endorsed by the WH. That has a much different effect than going on meet the press for 15min.

So if you are sick, do you take the advice of your lawyer, car mechanic, or your doctor? As a layman, how exactly do you evaluate the competency of an expert in a field you know virtually nothing about? How often do you suppose a president talks to much less evaluates the head of most XYZ agencies - or how much does it matter since most presidents are incompetents in most of those fields to know if the guy is technically incompetent? This is blind leading the blind, and the guy at the top is usually just the best bull shitter - whether government or corporate CEO.

 

[Vol423]

He was introduced daily by the POTUS. It gave every appearance that what he said was completely endorsed by the WH. That has a much different effect than going on meet the press for 15min.

So, it's your opinion that Trump should have been giving the daily updates on Covid himself? Exactly what was supposed to be the alternative to Fauci at the time? He was head of the CDC.

 

[utvolpj]

So, it's your opinion that Trump should have been giving the daily updates on Covid himself? Exactly what was supposed to be the alternative to Fauci at the time? He was head of the CDC.

I've said multiple times that all info should have been disseminated by Pence's group. Fauci could have reported to that. Trump needed to talk less

 

[utvolpj]

So if you are sick, do you take the advice of your lawyer, car mechanic, or your doctor? As a layman, how exactly do you evaluate the competency of an expert in a field you know virtually nothing about? How often do you suppose a president talks to much less evaluates the head of most XYZ agencies - or how much does it matter since most presidents are incompetents in most of those fields to know if the guy is technically incompetent? This is blind leading the blind, and the guy at the top is usually just the best bull shitter - whether government or corporate CEO.

If what the doctor/lawyer/mechanic is saying is the opposite of what you want to do you don't keep going back. It's not a difficult concept and no doubt his corps understand how to present a single message to the world. It's why they don't let the doorman make press statements or it turns into a post-tornado interview

 

[AM64]

I've said multiple times that all info should have been disseminated by Pence's group. Fauci could have reported to that. Trump needed to talk less

Because Pence and a bunch of other bureaucrats somehow selected to a committee would know more? A doc in the field who had a measure of success only had "anecdotal" information, but somehow a bunch of bureaucrats receiving filtered info in a committee room could turn out good stuff? I'm sure glad we have retired talking heads and media to keep us straight on who knows what and why they know it ... oh, most of all - why it's accurate and important - and most of all non-partisan or without any other hint of conflicting ideology.

 

[utvolpj]

Because Pence and a bunch of other bureaucrats somehow selected to a committee would know more? A doc in the field who had a measure of success only had "anecdotal" information, but somehow a bunch of bureaucrats receiving filtered info in a committee room could turn out good stuff? I'm sure glad we have retired talking heads and media to keep us straight on who knows what and why they know it ... oh, most of all - why it's accurate and important - and most of all non-partisan or without any other hint of conflicting ideology.

They could have put out the response they wanted. Instead they allowed Fauci to create and drive the WHs narrative and we know how well that worked.

But hey, keep carrying that water for Fauci. He's on our side

 

[Vol423]

Trump needed to talk less

On this point, we can agree. Trump needed to talk (and tweet) less in all situations, not just Covid. If he had, we wouldn't be suffering through President Dementia Biden right now.

 

[Vol423]

They could have put out the response they wanted. Instead they allowed Fauci to create and drive the WHs narrative and we know how well that worked.

But hey, keep carrying that water for Fauci. He's on our side

I think that everyone in here (excluding a couple flaming liberals) now knows that Fauci is a corrupt imbecile. However, nobody knew that at the beginning of 2020, including you.

 

[AM64]

If what the doctor/lawyer/mechanic is saying is the opposite of what you want to do you don't keep going back. It's not a difficult concept and no doubt his corps understand how to present a single message to the world. It's why they don't let the doorman make press statements or it turns into a post-tornado interview

I went through the Three Mile Island information debacle - I was there on a daily basis trying with many other people to determine the state of the plant and how best to get to a fully safe state. The nuclear industry has worked hard since to manage information. In fact, I wound up years later on an emergency response team as the guy who condensed a lot of incoming information into summaries for release - fortunately it was always drills rather than the real thing. From that experience there was absolutely no doubt that whatever happened, no matter how competent and diligent people were, no matter how honest the media tried to be, that the dissemination of covid information was going to be a disaster - a complete cluster f...

 

[utvolpj]

I think that everyone in here (excluding a couple flaming liberals) now knows that Fauci is a corrupt imbecile. However, nobody knew that at the beginning of 2020, including you.

But the WH had to know that was not the direction they wanted to go. Or when they did realize they wanted to change direction they needed admit a mistake and stop Fauci from publicly setting their objectives

 

[Vol423]

But the WH had to know that was not the direction they wanted to go. Or when they did realize they wanted to change direction they needed admit a mistake and stop Fauci from publicly setting their objectives

In what fantasy world are you living? Nobody really knew much of anything about this virus in early to mid-2020. The Trump administration was relying on the people that, in theory, were best prepared to give accurate, reliable advice as to how to keep Covid under control. The administration's objective was to prevent tons of people from dying. It wasn't until much later that everyone discovered that Fauci and the CDC were clueless liars.

 

[AM64]

But the WH had to know that was not the direction they wanted to go. Or when they did realize they wanted to change direction they needed admit a mistake and stop Fauci from publicly setting their objectives

Why? Fauci was where he was in the CDC because he was the bestest. People at the top of bureaucracies are always the best or they wouldn't be there; the federal government is the pinnacle of bureaucratic behavior; therefore, the people at the top of agencies must be the best the nation has to offer. Besides the head of the CDC was actually a doc - most technical federal agencies seem to be headed up by lawyers. Hopefully some of the rest of that didn't need blue ink, too.

 

[utvolpj]

In what fantasy world are you living? Nobody really knew much of anything about this virus in early to mid-2020. The Trump administration was relying on the people that, in theory, were best prepared to give accurate, reliable advice as to how to keep Covid under control. The administration's objective was to prevent tons of people from dying. It wasn't until much later that everyone discovered that Fauci and the CDC were clueless liars.

oh it was very early that many people realized this was a scam. The Trump admin abdicated to Fauci and the CDC which was a disaster. Ineffectual leadership cost him the election

 

[Vol423]

oh it was very early that many people realized this was a scam. The Trump admin abdicated to Fauci and the CDC which was a disaster. Ineffectual leadership cost him the election

That's some serious revisionist history.

 

[AM64]

But the WH had to know that was not the direction they wanted to go. Or when they did realize they wanted to change direction they needed admit a mistake and stop Fauci from publicly setting their objectives

Here's a better question. There have been some hints that a pandemic like covid could happen. Why then weren't federal XYZ agencies prepared? Where was the stocked protective gear; where were alternate medical facilities, trained backup staff, etc? Are you old enough to remember the Civil Defense shelters stocked with necessities in case of a nuclear attack? Why are we shelling out tons of taxpayer dollars for seemingly nothing. Why aren't we deciding that there have to be some industries that cannot be offshored - industries that are important for survival of the country - industries that produce strategically necessary goods and services? This is long term failure spanning multiple administrations and congresses; it is a failure of leadership. The blame does not just fall on the current occupant of the WH - now or three years ago. Every damn time Trump tried to address issues he was blocked by dems in congress and blasted by the media.

 

[utvolpj]

That's some serious revisionist history.

Not at all. Just read the thread. I was accused of wanting millions to die for suggesting that we keep business open

I understood the initial reaction because we didn't know much. Couple months into it someone should have called a TO and made some adjustments