Latest Coronavirus - Yikes

#115,152
#115,152
hog88 said:
So you should have the right to show up anytime you choose, wear whatever you choose, say whatever you want to say, be drunk, high or set your own pay?
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If we elect a government with the edict to stop mandatory vaccinations that's acceptable. Same as minimum wage.
 
#115,153
#115,153
hog88 said:
No I don’t I see exactly what you are describing and agree that monopolies are bad.
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That's the end result of the libertarian dream. There is no such thing as a perfect free market. It's the same ignorant bubble world that Communists live in.
 
#115,155
#115,155
Weezy said:
If we elect a government with the edict to stop mandatory vaccinations that's acceptable. Same as minimum wage.
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The minimum wage is not acceptable.

But to your point what do you do when the next election goes the other way? And if we should have learned anything from the last 2 years is once we allow the government (any level) to start mandating personnel policy and deciding who/what is essential or not they will never let that power go.
 
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#115,156
#115,156
DancingOutlaw said:
There is a difference between a business mandating something of their employees and the feds doing it. If a company wants to do that and you don't like it you give them the bird and walk out. When the feds make an employer do something I can't just up and leave this country.
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Uhhh, isnt that the exact problem we have complained about for decades? Manufacturing just got up and left. A lot of call centers just got up and left. With the proclivity of teleworking its difficult to argue you cant work elsewhere.

If the expectation is the worker should vote with his feet why shouldnt the business similarily be expected to vote with their feet?

You are arguing for a double standard that favors the employer. Instead of a double standard that favors the employee.
 
#115,157
#115,157
ButchPlz said:
That's the end result of the libertarian dream. There is no such thing as a perfect free market. It's the same ignorant bubble world that Communists live in.
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I wholeheartedly agree that pure capitalism is an unrealistic pipe dream but we should strive to be as close to that as possible. Personally I‘m glad that one of our competitors has started enforcing a vaccine mandate, I’ve had 4 applications come in this week from employees leaving them.
 
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#115,159
#115,159
hog88 said:
No it’s nowhere close to the same since I have no power to enforce my power outside of our business And I can’t force any of our suppliers, customers or vendors to have the same requirements. People are free to choose top be employees or not and abide by my rules so I’m in no way restricting anyones freedom. I can also decide to change my rules at anytime if I see the need, DeSantis took away that freedom from business owners.
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He didnt take away all their choices where there is now a dearth of freedom. He increased employee freedom at the cost of employer freedom. Hard to say that is wrong when the alternative is decreased employee freedom for increased employer freedom.

And you may not be able to dictate things to your suppliers or whatever but there are plenty of businesses that do.

You are just as FREE to move as your employee is. Your entire argument is that you want a different standard applied to you vs those you employ, to protect the power you have over your employees.
 
#115,161
#115,161
hog88 said:
Who are they owned by? Machines?
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LLCs are people? Most corporation classifications are designed around separating the owners personal stake in their business if things go side ways

You want to argue personal freedoms while hiding behind some tax or law dodge you otherwise personally wouldnt have.
 
#115,162
#115,162
LouderVol said:
He didnt take away all their choices where there is now a dearth of freedom. He increased employee freedom at the cost of employer freedom. Hard to say that is wrong when the alternative is decreased employee freedom for increased employer freedom.

And you may not be able to dictate things to your suppliers or whatever but there are plenty of businesses that do.

You are just as FREE to move as your employee is. Your entire argument is that you want a different standard applied to you vs those you employ, to protect the power you have over your employees.
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That is a false equivalence because not every employer would have instituted a vaccine mandate and it took away the employee right to look for employment at fully vaccinated workplaces.
 
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#115,165
#115,165
ButchPlz said:
Where do you think a lot of the regulations, rules, etc. that exist come from? Take the meat industry for example- why are there so few small producers left?

I suppose what I see is that in the case of a "corporatist" state what I mean is a combination of regulatory capture/legalized bribery putting up barriers to market entry, and concentration of industries into mega-conglomerates that all put out the same rules on employees, etc. that effectively do the same job as government. It's easy to say businesses don't have the power to do things, but that ignores the reality of what is going on. The market is getting less and less free, in a lot of ways because of massive corporate interests.
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Thank you for the depth of insight. I appreciate it. And in the way you outlined, I agree. Corporatism can be no better or not much better in certain instances. Corporatism is required to curry favor with government to create barriers to entry.
My opinion is if we could eliminate the power government can wield, eliminate the need for bribery (to gain power and advantage) we could eliminate corporatism as well.
 
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#115,166
#115,166
hog88 said:
That is a false equivalence because not every employer would have instituted a vaccine mandate and it took away the employee right to look for employment at fully vaccinated workplaces.
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How did it take away peoples ability to work at a fully vaxxed place? He didnt ban the vaccine.

Every place of business instituting a mandate or not doesnt change the workers freedom. At least we dont look at that for anything else. You arent allowed to not pay your workers just because the guy down the street does pay his. Their freedom should be protected across the board.
 
#115,168
#115,168
LouderVol said:
How did it take away peoples ability to work at a fully vaxxed place? He didnt ban the vaccine.

Every place of business instituting a mandate or not doesnt change the workers freedom. At least we dont look at that for anything else. You arent allowed to not pay your workers just because the guy down the street does pay his. Their freedom should be protected across the board.
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Quite the paradox “freedom should be protected across the board” except the freedom of the business owners?
 
#115,169
#115,169
hog88 said:
Quite the paradox “freedom should be protected across the board” except the freedom of the business owners?
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I asked early on what the perfect solution was to protect everyone's freedom equally and got crickets.

If you have a solution that would, please present it.

I pointed out that instead of keeping Group A with less freedom and Group B with more, he flipped them. Which makes sense, for the government, since A is far more people and typically the less powerful of the two.
 
#115,170
#115,170
LouderVol said:
I asked early on what the perfect solution was to protect everyone's freedom equally and got crickets.

If you have a solution that would, please present it.

I pointed out that instead of keeping Group A with less freedom and Group B with more, he flipped them. Which makes sense, for the government, since A is far more people and typically the less powerful of the two.
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I have answered this question several times and what DeSantis and other governors should have done was to simply say “this mandate will not be enforced in our state” any federal agent or agencies attempting to enforce these unconstitutional mandates will be subject to arrest by state authorities.

That would have been the preferred method of protecting everyone.
 
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#115,171
#115,171
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#115,172
#115,172
hog88 said:
I have answered this question several times and what DeSantis and other governors should have done was to simply say “this mandate will not be enforced in our state” any federal agent or agencies attempting to enforce these unconstitutional mandates will be subject to arrest by state authorities.

That would have been the preferred method of protecting everyone.
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Except the workers. Its preffered by you because it protects the owners.

Desantis just took your desired action in a way that benefitted the worker over the owner, instead of how you want it.
 
#115,174
#115,174
McDad said:
Thank you for the depth of insight. I appreciate it. And in the way you outlined, I agree. Corporatism can be no better or not much better in certain instances. Corporatism is required to curry favor with government to create barriers to entry.
My opinion is if we could eliminate the power government can wield, eliminate the need for bribery (to gain power and advantage) we could eliminate corporatism as well.
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My only concern then is that a free market requires an informed market, and I don't believe that is entirely possible. We're already seeing companies (like in tech) that get to operate in a relatively low regulation environment wield their own power to control flow of information. Then, of course, you end up with the massive consolidation we already see in our current market. I don't think those are caused only by government.
 
#115,175
#115,175
Georgia hospitals plead for public to help lower COVID-19 spread
Top doctors at six of metro Atlanta’s largest hospital groups made extraordinary pleas on Thursday for Georgians to get vaccinated and take steps to reduce coronavirus infections to ensure emergency rooms and hospitals can care for people most in need.
Dr. Robert Jansen, chief medical officer at Grady Health System said the state’s largest hospital is at 110% capacity, in large part because of COVID-19 patients.
”It’s wall-to-wall stretchers,” Jansen said of Grady’s emergency department. “We have no capacity left in the hospital.”
The overwhelming majority of people hospitalized or dying from COVID are the unvaccinated, they said.
”Even though the vaccines are challenged (by the omicron variant), they remain a success,” said Dr. Jayne Morgan, executive director of the Piedmont Healthcare COVID-19 task force. “These vaccines have still by and large have kept us out of the hospital and out of the morgue.”
 
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