Dee Beckwith status?

#352
#352
Birdie said:
ILooking at Stoops trajectory his first 3yrs their record wasn't great, 2-10, 5-7, 5-7 but he showed signs of progress. Was recruiting better than they normally do. Was very competitive against some good teams like UF, Auburn, and Louisville. Started beating teams like Vandy, SCAR, Missouri, etc.

If CJH can show progress that he's taking it in the right direction overall I do hope the admin and fans will look at the big picture and stick it out with him. Disappointed in the Pitt loss and need to see better recruitment when the investigation is gone but overall have liked what I see from him. Banks looks like a good hire. The O is getting people open and scoring points even though operating at a lower level. Just needs to continue taking steps.
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Stoops has had one winning conference record the entire time he's been at Kentucky, maybe he gets his second this year as long as none of the other coaches watched how Chattanooga took them to the limits.

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The only way Heupel gets as much time to fart around as much as Stoops has, is if UT decides to lower expectations for the football program from "being competitive in the conference" to "qualifying for a bowl game" which is the metric Kentucky uses for determining a good season.
 
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#353
#353
IluvdoubleD's said:
you ever laugh and people have no idea what you are laughing about, and everyone thinks you're crazy? I feel crazy.

the issue is we have 6 plays in the playbook, and they don't include a fullback, or even a two TE set apparently.
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Haha this is true. Cue the airplane over my head for that one.
 
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#354
#354
rocytop2624 said:
Who is are 3 5 stars? Cade May's, the other Tackle and Bailey?
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Cade, Aubrey Solomon and Darnell Wright. Bailey was a 5 star on Rivals or something but he was a 4 star on the Composite (which averages 247, Rivals and ESPN). The overall team talent numbers are from the Composite.
 
#355
#355
BeardedVol said:
Stoops has had one winning conference record the entire time he's been at Kentucky, maybe he gets his second this year as long as none of the other coaches watched how Chattanooga took them to the limits.

stoops.png


The only way Heupel gets as much time to fart around as much as Stoops has, is if UT decides to lower expectations for the football program from "being competitive in the conference" to "qualifying for a bowl game" which is the metric Kentucky uses for determining a good season.
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Not comparing them in literal terms like that. Stoops showed signs of progress that he could be better and be better than what they'd had. UK stuck with him.

I don't know exactly what that translates to for TN and Huepelbut I do know if he is showing signs of improvement and progress that may not always show-up in the win column for the first 3, maybe 4yrs, it will make sense to keep him than turn this over again. We've turned it over pretty quickly 4x's now, maybe we should try the opposite cause it ain't working.

Now, if he is Dooley or Pruitt awful and clearly not managing the roster or program well then you have to let him go sooner.
 
#357
#357
Birdie said:
Not comparing them in literal terms like that. Stoops showed signs of progress that he could be better and be better than what they'd had. UK stuck with him.

I don't know exactly what that translates to for TN and Huepelbut I do know if he is showing signs of improvement and progress that may not always show-up in the win column for the first 3, maybe 4yrs, it will make sense to keep him than turn this over again. We've turned it over pretty quickly 4x's now, maybe we should try the opposite cause it ain't working.

Now, if he is Dooley or Pruitt awful and clearly not managing the roster or program well then you have to let him go sooner.
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UK has stuck with him because UK's expectations are beating Louisville and having a 6-6 record. If we want to lower the bar for Heupel to that level, all he has to do is beat Vandy every year, and manage 1 or 2 more conference wins depending on who our P5 OOC opponent is.

Heupel has to show that he can develop players, and that his teams can win games that they should win, or he's never going to recruit well enough to even think about reaching some measure of success in the SEC beyond beating the dregs and a few other middling teams.

The alternative is that we lower expectations for the program, and redefine a good season beating Vandy and making it to 'Fred's Automart Bowl'.
 
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#358
#358
Rickyvol77 said:
Rebuilt two other programs 😂
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This is a new level of asinine even for you. Do you really think you can make the truth into a lie just by a snarky comment? Go ahead and prove that he didn't. You realize the records of his previous coaching stops are readily available online, right?
 
#359
#359
Birdie said:
Agree. Still ask, how has Ole Miss gone from bad to competitive with the same talent that wasn't rated as high or developed. If one school recruits with an average ranking of say 20 and the other of say 35 over 5yrs, both have bad coaching and development, transfers, etc. The school with the higher recruiting average should have equal to if not more talent than the other.
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Ole Miss averaged the 9th rated class in the SEC the 5 years prior to last year when RS seniors from 2016 would be on the roster. They finished tied for 8th in the SEC with Kentucky at 4 wins. In 2019 their losses were by an average of 10.6 points vs a tougher schedule than they played in 2020. LSU for instance was significantly better in 2019 than 2020 and they managed to miss Texas A&M due to covid.
In 2020 their average loss was by 11. They only SEC game they were able to reverse in 2020 was their loss to Miss State. But Arkansas beat them, which was a game they won in 2019. They scored more points in 2020 but play worse defense. This year is still pending. They've ran it up against some less than stellar defenses so far.
 
#360
#360
lifeisdeep said:
This is a new level of asinine even for you. Do you really think you can make the truth into a lie just by a snarky comment? Go ahead and prove that he didn't. You realize the records of his previous coaching stops are readily available online, right?
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Kiffin is 5-18 vs ranked teams and 8-9 in the SEC. he caused serious issues and at three of his four HC gigs. He’s a good OC but has done nothing to be shown to be a successful HC
 
#362
#362
unfrozencvmanvol said:
I agree with what I think is your overall sentiment, i.e., that CJH is being judged unfairly, but we are still 19th on the team talent composite, which takes into account all the attrition you cite. The difference is our talent has not been developed as good as other programs for over a decade, under multiple staffs. I don't know whether Heupel is the guy or not but I do know Heupel can't fix everything to most of our fans' satisfaction in a year or two, indeed the constant turnover of staffs and philosophies have been a big part of the problem.

The other big part of the problem is that the SEC is extremely talented. When we finish with a Top 15 to 20 class, that is usually good for between 6th and 8th in the SEC in any given year. If you are No. 10 nationally in recruiting one year, you've usually still got a minimum of 3-4 conference teams ahead of you. We play those teams. Hell, usually the SEC has 11-12 teams among the nation's most talented 30. Think about it, should a team whose raw talent is 19th, whose seniors are on their 3rd coach and 3rd philosophy really be favored against a team that's 26th that's had the same coach and been in the same system for 5+ years? I say that's unlikely. The more stable 26th team beats the 19th, 9 times out of 10 I think. Especially if the stable program is at home. That's where we are and no amount of wishing is going to result in a quick fix that will erase the effects of the last 10-15 years.

Heupel needs 5 years here, at least, to get this thing tangibly moving in the right direction. Short of some sort of major off the field scandal or a Chad Morris type record, think something like 5-19 over two seasons, Heupel needs to be here for 5 years without question and without being on the hot seat. If we put him on the hot seat for less than that we only compound our problem and lengthen our sojourn through CFB purgatory.

2021 College Football Team Talent Composite
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The issue with that is that it's using their high school rankings. Aubury Solomon/Hooker/Milton etc all lost a star or two according to their transfer rankings. We also happen to have more transfers than any team in the SEC, with 10 last year alone.
 
#365
#365
lifeisdeep said:
I will believe we offered him $90 million when I hear it from Franklin's mouth.
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If we had, ESPN/SI/247/The Atlantic/ would have been all over it, and Franklin would have gotten a serious raise from Penn State.

No agent worth his cut would let that kind of rival offer go without parlaying it into a fat raise and extension from their client's current school.
 
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#367
#367
BeardedVol said:
UK has stuck with him because UK's expectations are beating Louisville and having a 6-6 record. If we want to lower the bar for Heupel to that level, all he has to do is beat Vandy every year, and manage 1 or 2 more conference wins depending on who our P5 OOC opponent is.

Heupel has to show that he can develop players, and that his teams can win games that they should win, or he's never going to recruit well enough to even think about reaching some measure of success in the SEC beyond beating the dregs and a few other middling teams.

The alternative is that we lower expectations for the program, and redefine a good season beating Vandy and making it to 'Fred's Automart Bowl'.
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It's relative. I've never said we should lower expectations. We shouldn't. I said that if Huepel shows signs of improvement and progress that doesn't always equate to the record we want early on, then we should stick with him. Stoops is just an example. He was 12-24 his first 3yrs, not exactly inspiring, but for UK, he was recruiting better than they normally do and was being competitive with programs like Florida while getting wins over the Missouri's and SCARS. If CJH goes 6-6/7-5 over the next 3yrs while recruiting improves, he's getting OL/DL he can redshirt, we're taking care if business vs the Vandy, UK, and Missouri's of the world, and we see the talent gap and competitiveness of games with the Georgia's, Florida's, and Bama's get better then stick with him for awhile. Give him a chance to continue building it and prove he can't take it to the next level. Otherwise you blow up and start over again, guaranteeing placement in the "Fred's Automart Bowl" for another 3-4 years.
 
#368
#368
BeardedVol said:
If we had, ESPN/SI/247/The Atlantic/ would have been all over it, and Franklin would have gotten a serious raise from Penn State.

No agent worth his cut would let that kind of rival offer go without parlaying it into a fat raise and extension from their client's current school.
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Stop with that logic and common sense! Those have no place on this board!
 
#369
#369
dduncan4163 said:
Ugh why do I already feel like Heup is gonna be another failure. Please let the feeling be bad gas. I don't know why but I just don't have any confidence in him as our HC. Wish like hell I did.
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We can't even begin to evaluate him as a coach until this NCAA investigation is over and not hanging over our heads. What the hell is taking so long?
 
#371
#371
Rickyvol77 said:
He hasn’t done anything in a decade as a HC. Why is it taking so long?
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I'm curious what the thought process is when someone puts forth an overt, easily disprovable lie. Do you just assume the average poster on here is too stupid to know that Kiffin took FAU from 3-9 the year before he got there to 11-3 and a conference championship his first year there, and then won another conference championship and went 10-3 his third and final year? Do you just assume people won't look stuff up to see if you're telling the truth, or that everyone is too lazy to call out your falsehoods?
 
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#372
#372
lifeisdeep said:
I'm curious what the thought process is when someone puts forth an overt, easily disprovable lie. Do you just assume the average poster on here is too stupid to know that Kiffin took FAU from 3-9 the year before he got there to 11-3 and a conference championship his first year there, and then won another conference championship and went 10-3 his third and final year? Do you just assume people won't look stuff up to see if you're telling the truth, or that everyone is too lazy to call out your falsehoods?
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how did he do at Raiders and UT and USC? We aren’t talking midmajor crap. You sound like the posters saying coaches like Norvell or Fuentes or Hawkins or Peterson or Leach or Sumlin would be awesome coaches because they had some good offenses at midmajor type schools but can’t ever cut it in a major conference just like Kiffin
 
#373
#373
Birdie said:
It's relative. I've never said we should lower expectations. We shouldn't. I said that if Huepel shows signs of improvement and progress that doesn't always equate to the record we want early on, then we should stick with him. Stoops is just an example. He was 12-24 his first 3yrs, not exactly inspiring, but for UK, he was recruiting better than they normally do and was being competitive with programs like Florida while getting wins over the Missouri's and SCARS. If CJH goes 6-6/7-5 over the next 3yrs while recruiting improves, he's getting OL/DL he can redshirt, we're taking care if business vs the Vandy, UK, and Missouri's of the world, and we see the talent gap and competitiveness of games with the Georgia's, Florida's, and Bama's get better then stick with him for awhile. Give him a chance to continue building it and prove he can't take it to the next level. Otherwise you blow up and start over again, guaranteeing placement in the "Fred's Automart Bowl" for another 3-4 years.
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UK has not, and does not expect Stoops to be competitive in the conference as a whole. You can't really compare Heupel to Stoops, unless we lower the expectations for Heupel, or Kentucky raises the expectations for Stoops.

Kentucky is perfectly fine with the job Stoops is doing. Would you be fine with keeping Heupel for 8+ seasons if during that time he only had one winning SEC record, and never had a win over Florida/Georgia/Alabama?
 
#374
#374
VolArmy74 said:
The issue with that is that it's using their high school rankings. Aubury Solomon/Hooker/Milton etc all lost a star or two according to their transfer rankings. We also happen to have more transfers than any team in the SEC, with 10 last year alone.
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Well, my original point was that we have not developed our talent like other programs, not that we don't have any, so I think the team talent composite rankings are very illustrative and relevant to that point.
 
#375
#375
unfrozencvmanvol said:
Well, my original point was that we have not developed our talent like other programs, not that we don't have any, so I think the team talent composite rankings are very illustrative and relevant to that point.
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In the case of most transfers, like Solomon/Milton especially, it's not that we haven't developed them, their prior coaching staff couldn't either. That's why their rankings fall. They are a more proven commodity for better or worse.
 
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